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We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

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Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#231
post #34
post #2

> Cars are the slowest, lowest-bandwidth forms of urban transportation. This is the kind of thing I read a lot in micromobility advocacy articles, but it seems like it can't be true. How can a bike, scooter, or moped be either faster or higher-bandwidth than a car? Also, serious question: if electric SDCs became widespread, would it still make sense to advocate things like bikes? You can't transport a family of three…

Cars transport around ~1500 people per hour per lane, while 2 bike lanes taking up the same amount of space of a car lane is ~5200 people per hour. A proper train line does 32'000 people per hour. https://www.theurbanist.org/2016/05/26/the-supply-and-demand... A more visual demonstration: https://humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-alm...

With one exception that you have to find 5200 people, while cars actually transporting 1500 people and I am not talking about public transport.

From my point of view the top priority should be good public transport.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#232
What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa.

No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and public transport co-exist, and infrastructure is developed strategically in smart ways and in a prolonged effort.

When I was young in The Netherlands for the most part the cars still dominated the streets. Over time I've seen cities and road networks gradually being transformed to what I now consider a Walhalla for cyclists. Public transport plays a big role in that too, and the Dutch still love their cars.

I highly recommend reading this article: "No helmets, no problem: how the Dutch created a casual biking culture" [0] which interviews the American Bruntlett family that wrote the book "Building the Cycling City: The Dutch Blueprint for Urban Vitality" [1]

See also the great discussion on HN at the time [2].

[0] https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/8/28/17789510/bi...

[1] https://islandpress.org/books/building-cycling-city

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17861803

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#233
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let that sink in: The Dutch are already starting to abandon their pedal bikes. Within Netherlands the number of accidents with bikes also has skyrocketed. That's due to often older people buying these bikes. They're more mobile, however they're slow to respond, plus not used to the speed of these bikes. As a result, more accidents plus the accidents are more severe. The electric bikes are often restricted to 25 km/…

> Note that wearing a hi-viz vest can actually make you more accident prone. There's been various studies that a helmet or a hi-viz vest means other cars will pass you closer than before. Even worse, when I used to ride a motorcycle I got complaints and agression when wearing a hi-viz vest. Either people though I was a traffic controller and sometimes approach me more aggresively (aggression toward police/traffic con…

Different colors?

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mom with three young kids in tow Ha! Go see how they do it in Europe. Bike trailers, extra seats in the front & back, built in cargo decks, longer bikes; there are lots of fancy ways to load a lot of kids & cargo onto your bike. And don't forget that kids can ride their own bikes too! My kid was riding a bike with me to daycare at 3-4 years old. Your thinking is too car-centric!

But why? It takes a long time to get kids helmeted up and they don’t ride very fast. Not everyone has the leisure to ride bikes everywhere. My kids schools are 10 miles from home and 5 miles from each other. Even with a dedicated bike lane, it would still take dramatically more work to drive. Then, if it rains.. I have to worry about it rain gear for everyone. Then if one kid gets sick at school, I’m supposed to ride…

I think the idea is "let's make cities friendlier for people and bikes" rather than "ban all cars everywhere".

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“They’re not a solution for most people” — I encourage you to come visit the Netherlands. You’ll see a society where bikes are regularly used by “most people.” Wealthy, middle class, poor — nearly everybody rides the same cheap black bike. And not just in the cities, but throughout the entire country. Sit in a cafe near a busy street in Utrecht, Amsterdam, Groningen, The Hague or Leiden, and you’ll see all walks of l…

The United States is over 200 times larger than the Netherlands in area. Suggesting that the U.S. follow the Dutch model for transportation is completely missing the mark. It's not workable at U.S. scale. Many workers live 10, 20, even 30 miles from their jobs.

I'm not understanding why you'd not design infrastructure better? So not entirely made for one means (e.g. car). It'll always be a combination. Some parts will be able to be like the Netherlands. You're saying the US is huge, but still you want one solution for all?!?

Further, it's pretty common in Netherlands to live in one big city and work in another. The Netherlands is small, so it'll usually be 10-20 miles away.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#236
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Seattle, with a powerful bike lobby, the cyclists come out when it's warm, dry, and daylight. Which is about 30% of the year. The demographic that bikes are young, fit adults. Can't bike much of anywhere without struggling with hills.

> The demographic that bikes are young, fit adults. Can't bike much of anywhere without struggling with hills. If only young/fit people use the infrastructure then the infrastructure is really poor! Note than I'm from the Netherlands and comparing countries is a bit weird. Why not aim for a better infrastructure than the Netherlands? Anyway, for hilly areas I expect a large share of people to use electric bikes. And…

The Netherlands bike culture is very different than in Seattle. In the Netherlands people ride cheap beater bikes in street clothes with no helmets. In Seattle people ride expensive racing bikes with Tour de France outfits on and helmets.

Electric bikes come at a large cost premium over that.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#237
post #2

> Cars are the slowest, lowest-bandwidth forms of urban transportation. This is the kind of thing I read a lot in micromobility advocacy articles, but it seems like it can't be true. How can a bike, scooter, or moped be either faster or higher-bandwidth than a car? Also, serious question: if electric SDCs became widespread, would it still make sense to advocate things like bikes? You can't transport a family of three…

This may be because I don't live in a "real city" (population 100k, US), but I see people biking with kids all the time (typically in some sort of cargo bike that has had seats added to it). The big threat while biking with kids (or without kids, for that matter) is from cars clipping you as they pass or pulling out in front of you. It's the cars that are the problem, not the bikes. Creating the infrastructure to all…

IMO the problem is not the car, nor the bike. The problem is that they're sharing the same infrastructure. For new infrastructure I'd suggest also thinking about mopeds and quick electric bikes.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that Holland is entirely flat, has an average high of 71 in the summer, and rarely if ever gets icy. The Dutch experience simply doesn't translate to most of America because of the terrain and climate. Elderly people people will die if you make them walk in the Florida summer. 7 year old children lack the leg-strength to bike up California hills. Both groups are likely to slip and crack their heads…

I actually appreciate you pointing this out. I get rather tired of smug assertions that America can just do everything like it's done in Europe or something when the landscape and population density are so very different. But I don't think that means we can't borrow any lessons at all from them. The biggest lesson we can borrow from the Dutch seems to be that they set out to intentionally make their cities more pedes…

> I actually appreciate you pointing this out. I get rather tired of smug assertions that America can just do everything like it's done in Europe or something when the landscape and population density are so very different.

Ahem. The Alps, the fjords, the Netherlands, the Mediterranean coast of Spain, are all very different landscapes.

The population density of the combined regions is probably a red herring, too: nobody sane will cycle from California across Nevada to Salt Lake City, except as a fitness holiday. Even my 1080-km cycle along the Rhine (flat from Hoek van Holland to Switzerland) isn’t something anyone sensible would do to get from A-to-B, and I flew home instead of cycling back to the UK.

Instead, what will matter is the average journey time from where people live to where they want to go, and how much effort it is to get there. Electric bikes will help on both counts.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#239
post #181

While it sounds preposterous right now this problem will soon solve itself with already built "bike lanes". And bicycles are not the solution. The solution, as this article touches on, is light weight electric transport using the existing road structure. There's a strong indication of this future in the fact that last year the Dutch bought more electric bikes than normal bikes in total. And they paid twice as much fo…

Even electric bikes are not the solution, at least not in many parts of the world. What happens when it rains / snows? I don't know what the solution is though, maybe small electric cars, self driven, as part of public transportation service?

I commute daily in London on a bike. I wear a coat and gloves. Waterproof over trousers are also an option

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#240
post #62

I'm curious as to what planet you'd have to be living on to think that if we have billions of dollars to spare on huge transport infrastructure projects that aren't cars, that it should go to bikes and not public transport + walkability. I'm guessing it's a special magic planet with startlingly good weather year-round, without disabled people, where everyone gets to age into spry Euro-oldsters. Not wanting to kick of…

I don't mind the weather in Copenhagen where the amount of people who bikes every day exceeds the amount of people who take public transportation every day by around 50% (1). Weather in Copenhagen is rarely very cold or very warm. But Copenhagen weather is not "startlingly good all year-round". It rains quite often and temperatures are often close to zero or sub zero. And it's windy all the time. It even snows a few…

Holland is the densest nation in Europe, but still has substantial farmland, so the urban parts are very dense. It is flat with a mild climate, and the entire urban areas combined would fit into an area smaller than New York City. This is somehow a reproducible model in your mind.

Then there are real economic and social trade offs that need to be seriously discussed. Historically the beautiful, walkable, lovely human scaled cities we all love before the automobile had large inequalities in land ownership. A small number of landlords owned most of the living units and everyone else rented from them. This was because the jobs were in the cities, so landlords could effectively tax people for having access to the high paying jobs. Once they got 1/3 of everyone's income, they could roll that over to purchasing more units faster than the renters could both pay rent and save to buy their own house. This creates a situation where a small number of families own most of the beautiful historical buildings that renters occupy in those lovely downtown cities.

It was the introduction of the car that created a real middle class and increased home ownership allowing people to escape the thumb of their landlords and buy cheaper land surrounding the cities while keeping their jobs in the city. This shifted the economic rents captured by urban landlords and transferred it to auto manufacturers and other producers, shifting resources away from rent extraction and towards production, which spurred economic growth, home ownership, and family formation all together. The growth of suburbs was merely a byproduct of this economic geography.

As transportation technology improves, cities become less dense over time. All cities, the world over, are slowly getting less dense. Living units are growing a few percent each year size, so what used to house a family over time becomes a studio apartment, and in this way, even as the buildings remain the same, urban density declines. Even builder taller buildings doesn't overcome the inexorable decline of density, a process uninterrupted since the early 20th century.

Global populations are diffusing, spread out constantly trying to stay one step ahead of the urban landlords and take better advantage of new transportation to buy units farther away where land is cheap enough for them to buy their own small lot.

When you start reversing this, you also start rolling back homeownership rates. Those lovely, dense walkable cities in the US are majority renter populations. They are also demographic sinks -- people don't reproduce at anywhere near replacement levels compared to more rural environments where homeownership rates are higher as are fertility rates.

In other words, there are real inequality and social sustainability problems with dense living. It's not even something that is demographically sustainable. These cities require a constant inflow of people from more rural areas or immigrants from other countries to prevent demographic collapse.

That doesn't mean that there aren't solutions -- perhaps there are! You can adopt public policies that disincentivize renting and subsidize homeownership in cities. You may (or may not) address the demographic collapse of urban areas. Spain (and the Netherlands) have massive problems with demographic collapse but have achieved high home ownership rates, but it addressing transportation promotion with homeownership and family formation all together, because all of these are intimately related.

This is something that the anti-car crowd has never done, nor is it even on their radar.

That people leave the city because they want to buy their own house and have kids, and once they are in the suburbs you really need a car -- that doesn't seem to register. Instead, it's all talk about building more infrastructure and this will suddenly reverse these trends. This isn't a serious engagement of the issues.

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