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The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

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Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#231

Post by 21 »

lmm wrote: post #216
21 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, these bitcoins that are hoarded in a bunker are extracted from the economy as long as they are there. These bitcoins were bought with cash, which is now sitting in the sellers "savings" account. The dollars did not disappear in thin air.

Those dollars continue to circulate, contributing to a functional dollar economy. Those bitcoins don't, so we don't have a functional bitcoin economy.

At some point, after the last central bank and Buffet bought bitcoin reserves, it will stop appreciating in value. Then it can start to circulate.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#232

Post by TeMPOraL »

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #135
will_brown wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point are the miners/network considered the centralized institution? Are corporations considered “decentralized institutions” in the world of bitcoin enthusiasts? After all corporations are made up of decentralized shareholders that can vote for and change the directors. If that doesn’t fit...what about a credit union? Like bitcoin there are no “owners/shareholders” of credit unions they are simply comprised…

Not sure if representative for "bitcoin enthusiasts", but here is how I see it: As the written word spread in Europe after BC, it layed an important cornerstone for democracy and changed the world for good. Noone would argue with that, right? Ok, so let's look at Europe from 500BC-1300BC. Corrupt monks forging official documents, under some goverments up only about 60-80% of the were real. Monks were people of god, s…

Personally, I'd be fine with all that if not for the elephant in the room - the superlinearly growing, unbounded energy upkeep required to support cryptocurrencies. That one single reason alone outweights all the potential benefits you allude to.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#233

Post by jsutton »

spookthesunset wrote: post #151
aje403 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an investment product, it's a ponzi scheme

> it's a ponzi scheme The beauty of Bitcoin and the whole crypto "space" is that they are more than just mere ponzi schemes. Don't let the pedants get to you--the crypto space transcends the entire gamut of frauds, scams and schemes. They're not only ponzi schemes but pyramid schemes, MLM scams, a pump & dump scams, exit scams, exchange scams, securities fraud, and a bunch of other named and unnamed scams you'd find…

Your view seems to be to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The crypto space is full of scams, PnDs, etc. The crypto space is also full of world-changing technologies that will affect our economies and societies significantly. Both are true, and you'll be remiss to ignore that part.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#234

Post by TeMPOraL »

21 wrote: post #223
pavlov wrote: post #22

According to its proponents, Bitcoin is digital gold. (Interestingly it’s not an “electronic currency” anymore even though that was the original title of the 2008 whitepaper. I suppose Lightning Network or something is supposed to fix that with new transaction layers backed by the Bitcoin gold.) One aspect of gold’s historical value is that it’s traditionally recognized even in societies in collapse. I’ve never under…

> After an EMP wipes out data centers and cell phone towers If such a thing happens on a large scale there will be hundred of millions of deaths. All major cities will simply collapse. See recent articles how London can only survive for 4 days without electricity, after that there will be no food. The modern society is incredibly fragile. Everything is just in time, there are no stocks or buffers. Bitcoins will be th…

Yes. Exactly.

That's why more and more people getting involved in scams and get-rich-schemes on a platform with superlinear and unbounded energy upkeep is something that worries me deeply. Energy and climate is something that very well may break our society.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#236

Post by daxorid »

Spooky23 wrote: post #209
jel9392mdke wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hoard capital now (currency being one form). Look at the result of the tax cuts leading to stock buy backs This is more motivation to transition from currency based societies and focus on outcomes that benefit labor first It’s plain there is no free market when currency monopolists can control not just what we work on looks like, but whether anything is worked on at all There is great demand for the end of war…

No, it’s a motivation to abandon monetary policy focused on eliminating inflation and re-prioritizing employment. The solution to hoarding capital is inflation or direct taxation of asssts.

What? In what world is QE 1,2, and 3, the dramatic and unprecedented expansion of the ECB's balance sheet, and the BOJ and SNB openly buying equities "focused on eliminating inflation"?

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#237

Post by TeMPOraL »

pavlov wrote: post #93
wyldfire wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or is the idea that Bitcoin will be valuable again when the wealthy finally crawl out of their New Zealand bunkers and reestablish the financial system? The idea is that the transactions are irreversible and you cannot rely on any number of police officers or judges to fix a theft. The bunkers are for security's sake, not preserving-wealth-in-an-apocalype's sake.

The police officers and judges can put you in jail, which is generally worse than having your assets confiscated. I’m not sure how Bitcoin helps. What I’m trying to understand is how Bitcoin advocates’ promise of it being a store of value independent from governments can be valid when the system depends on extremely sophisticated infrastructure that was built and enabled by governments.

> the system depends on extremely sophisticated infrastructure that was built and enabled by governments.

... and which continued existence and operation requires stable governments keeping most of the planet bound by the rule of law.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#238

Post by netsharc »

spookthesunset wrote: post #133
mkirklions wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself. I use bitcoin all the time for payments. Peer to peer using coinbase(email) for free and instant to friends. Shift card for free and instant at merchants. Bitcoin is beyond blockchain, companies have built products to trade BTC instantly, free, using the infrastructure already existing. The transaction time 'problem' doesnt really exist if you are into crypto, you know how to use it. And I dont tr…

> Bitcoin is beyond blockchain, companies have built products to trade BTC instantly, free, using the infrastructure already existing If bitcoin is "beyond blockchain", than what is it? Just a table of transactions in a Real Database™? If yes, whats the point? You've just layered a very bank-sounding, very-centralized construct on top of your space-age "trustless" decentralized blockchain. How is it at all revolution…

Re the cult thing: I read an eye-opening paragraph about it somewhere. Basically, yeah, if you've invested in it, you have to either fool everyone else to buying into your cult, so the price will rise and future-you can cash-out and make a profit, or more likely, you're trying to convince yourself that past-you wasn't an idiot that just burned a lot of money. Or worse, you've convinced yourself that the USD will turn to toilet paper, soon, soon!

It's applying the formula of the shit book "The Secret" ("if you want it really hard, the universe will give it to you") to getting rich...

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#239

Post by mr_spothawk »

emodendroket wrote: post #204
mr_spothawk wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wrt old-fashioned scams in my sibling's comment... they've been around much longer than they've been outlawed for. arguably, we would have better herd-immunity to them if we'd never outlawed them in the first case. yes, there's no recourse to losing your BTC. it's a good thing you were only playing around, or you'd be really screwed. if you mortgaged your house, well... that wasn't very smart was it. I'm sure you won…

What in the world are you talking about? There are a number of avenues you have to reverse fraudulent transactions with banking products that aren't available with BTC.

oh, that explains why nigerian scams dont work.

/s

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#240

Post by mikeash »

laglad wrote: post #221
mikeash wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a hash rate at least vaguely close to the pre-collapse hash rate, or else the network will grind to a halt. Will they be physically capable of that?

This assumes a sudden collapse event happening within the 10 minutes that it takes to reset the hash rate. I'm struggling to think of global scenarios where that can happen so quickly. What are the chances that collapse is a sudden event vs a cascading deterioration event?

It takes two weeks to reset the hash rate, if the hash rate stays constant. If it starts dropping, the time goes up.
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