The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers • Hacker News Board

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#201

Post by mr_spothawk » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #103

emodendroket wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you think all the problems with banks would go away if they simply operated without any regulation at all?

When did I say that? I think at the highest levels they already do operate without any regulation. When you get to write your own regulations and there's a revolving door between the regulatory agencies and the companies they're suppose to regulate, there is no meaningful regulation. Bitcoin and other digital currencies are a threat to them because there is no central agency in charge of it that they can infiltrate a…

wrt old-fashioned scams in my sibling's comment... they've been around much longer than they've been outlawed for. arguably, we would have better herd-immunity to them if we'd never outlawed them in the first case.

yes, there's no recourse to losing your BTC. it's a good thing you were only playing around, or you'd be really screwed.

if you mortgaged your house, well... that wasn't very smart was it. I'm sure you won't make that mistake again, and I think/hope we as a society/culture can work to help you recover from that.

whatever the case, if you lose your money/btc/shirt the banks won't be much help to you.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#202

Post by acdha » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:08 PM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #148

acdha wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investments need to have intrinsic value. Under the new spin that bitcoin isn’t intended to be a currency, it makes little sense as an investment because there’s no value in any particular set of random numbers. If nobody is using it except for speculation, where’s the incentive to pay to keep that network running?

If contracts are written and priced in BTC, then it will behave like a commodity. Since supply is limited, it's value will fluctuate based on demand (e.g. the need to acquire bitcoin to satisfy the contract). I'm not saying this is actually happening, but when/if it does, it will work no differently than other currencies.

Why would anyone choose to do that without some huge advantage to make up for the risks? The only reason seems to be ideological commitment and that doesn’t seem like an especially large market.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#203

Post by 21 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:08 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #179

chiefalchemist wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Looks like in the future people hoard currency instead of spending and investing it then. That ought to be interesting." That sounds like the current to me. Too much is locked up (in too few hands) instead of doing what currency should do. That is, reduce the friction of trade (i.e., goods, skills, etc.) Currency is a lubricant. It's no surprise things are drying up.

I completely agree with you that the concentration of wealth in the hands of a tiny portion of the population is a huge problem today, but don't deflationary cryptocurrencies make it objectively worse? At least if the current "1%" hoard dollars or euros in their mattress they slowly lose their wealth thanks to inflation. After a generation or two they'll have lost a significant share of their treasure. Therefore they…

> At least if the current "1%" hoard dollars or euros in their mattress they slowly lose their wealth thanks to inflation.

Long story short, they don't.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#204

Post by emodendroket » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

mr_spothawk wrote: post #201

imgabe wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did I say that? I think at the highest levels they already do operate without any regulation. When you get to write your own regulations and there's a revolving door between the regulatory agencies and the companies they're suppose to regulate, there is no meaningful regulation. Bitcoin and other digital currencies are a threat to them because there is no central agency in charge of it that they can infiltrate a…

wrt old-fashioned scams in my sibling's comment... they've been around much longer than they've been outlawed for. arguably, we would have better herd-immunity to them if we'd never outlawed them in the first case. yes, there's no recourse to losing your BTC. it's a good thing you were only playing around, or you'd be really screwed. if you mortgaged your house, well... that wasn't very smart was it. I'm sure you won…

What in the world are you talking about? There are a number of avenues you have to reverse fraudulent transactions with banking products that aren't available with BTC.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#205

Post by imgabe » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #164

imgabe wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did I say that? I think at the highest levels they already do operate without any regulation. When you get to write your own regulations and there's a revolving door between the regulatory agencies and the companies they're suppose to regulate, there is no meaningful regulation. Bitcoin and other digital currencies are a threat to them because there is no central agency in charge of it that they can infiltrate a…

Instead you just get people losing their shirts to old-fashioned scams that were made illegal a century ago, with no recourse whatsoever.

People are always losing money to old-fashioned scams, regardless of currency. It's a lot easier to learn about and protect yourself from simple, hundred year old scams than the brand new, never before seen scams the financial industry comes up with.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#206

Post by deevolution » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #22

According to its proponents, Bitcoin is digital gold. (Interestingly it’s not an “electronic currency” anymore even though that was the original title of the 2008 whitepaper. I suppose Lightning Network or something is supposed to fix that with new transaction layers backed by the Bitcoin gold.) One aspect of gold’s historical value is that it’s traditionally recognized even in societies in collapse. I’ve never under…

Youre basing your argument on the assumption that ALL datacenters have been wiped out. Its unlikely the entire world will engage in global warfare on a scale large enough to disable the internet, which the bitcoin network relies upon. Also, historically government currencies destabalize during war, so bitcoin would probably retain or increase in value, not diminish.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#207

Post by vitaflo » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

mkirklions wrote: post #74

Balero wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has no inflation, there are only a given number of total bitcoins in existence, which many (myself included) would argue makes it a poor currency.

> there are only a given number of total bitcoins in existence, which many (myself included) would argue makes it a poor currency. I have always question who says this. What makes you think deflation would be bad? My conspiracy is that governments require inflation to print themselves out of bad policy. Without government abilities to do this, the government performs poorly. Common citizens do not lose 2-4% of their…

Deflation reduces demand and increases hoarding. Why spend when tomorrow my deflated currency will be worth more than today? The currency then acts less and less like a currency (sound familiar?). In a deflationary environment, wages would go down over time and workers do not accept reduced wages vs increased wages even if their purchasing power remains the same in both cases. With small amounts of inflation, wages rise over time and people spend those raises, which helps fuel the economy.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#208

Post by clarkmoody » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

Inflationists / consumptionists have been demonizing savers and sound money since the 1700s, if not earlier. They enjoy the artificial boom induced through inflation of the money supply and then blame gold or speculation or "animal spirits" for the bust. They think that if we could only got back to the consumption levels of the boom, then we'd be "back on track." This never works, and the calls for consumption are usually special pleading by bank-connected interests that stand to benefit from monetary inflation.

We will see the pattern continue with Bitcoin, the most sound money the world has ever known (no matter how high the price goes, you cannot increase supply beyond the scheduled issuance). This time is different, however. The consumer can (and should) control her own private keys, which means not trusting a bank, which historically will inflate the money supply to its own benefit. Forced confiscation of privately-held Bitcoin will be much more expensive than previous confiscations of gold already held in vaults.

Unfortunately, those wealthy savers with their money in the vaults mentioned in the article will have their Bitcoin confiscated when things get bad enough. Too many in the space have already learned the hard way what happens when you trust your coins to a centralized institution.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#209

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

jel9392mdke wrote: post #169

simias wrote: post #17

>the global currency of the future, that they need to buy some, and that he’s the man to safeguard it. Looks like in the future people hoard currency instead of spending and investing it then. That ought to be interesting. It also demonstrates the costs associated with non-reversible transactions, these vaults aren't storing gold ingots or priceless artifacts, just private keys. Banks around the world don't need to w…

People hoard capital now (currency being one form). Look at the result of the tax cuts leading to stock buy backs This is more motivation to transition from currency based societies and focus on outcomes that benefit labor first It’s plain there is no free market when currency monopolists can control not just what we work on looks like, but whether anything is worked on at all There is great demand for the end of war…

No, it’s a motivation to abandon monetary policy focused on eliminating inflation and re-prioritizing employment.

The solution to hoarding capital is inflation or direct taxation of asssts.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#210

Post by 21 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

misja111 wrote: post #89

hapnin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be called "savings".

But there's a huge difference. With old fashioned "savings", the money was in a bank, which in turn would use it to invest it elsewhere. In other words, the money would still circulate in the economy. On the other hand, these bitcoins that are hoarded in a bunker are extracted from the economy as long as they are there. The implications are big: with the current trend of concentrating wealth to only a small fraction…

> On the other hand, these bitcoins that are hoarded in a bunker are extracted from the economy as long as they are there.

These bitcoins were bought with cash, which is now sitting in the sellers "savings" account. The dollars did not disappear in thin air.