Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 395 posts

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#231

Post by yokisan »

realusername wrote: post #200
yokisan wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's literally this simple. Integration has been a disaster to the extent that soldiers now patrol within the borders of France and Belgium. The great opportunity-cost of integrating populations and monitoring them when it fails has clearly become too expensive and people are saying "enough". Oddly, the EU doesn't seem to acknowledge the sentiment of the public and just keep hammering on about 'ever closer union'. Cl…

Fillon stance against migrants is very harsh and even harsher than the far-right on some aspects, apparently, having a hard stance on immigrants is not enough to prevent people to vote for the far-right.

Touché. Although the opponents in the campaign are mostly terrible. Even by French standards.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#232

Post by nitrogen »

cabalamat wrote: post #213
bluetomcat wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how is that different from the US intervening in "non-neighbouring" countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, or the UK going to war with the "neighbouring" Falkland Islands?

> And how is that different from the US intervening in "non-neighbouring" countries like Iraq or Afghanistan The USA hasn't tried to annex parts of those countries. > the UK going to war with the "neighbouring" Falkland Islands Most countries would fight a war if their territory was invaded.

The USA hasn't tried to annex parts of those countries.

Do military bases count?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#233

Post by BurningFrog »

gbog wrote: post #135
BurningFrog wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A reasonably wealthy middle class will take power. Because money is power, and they have most of it. At least that is one way you can view the democratization of the west. The same mechanism - if real - should apply in China as well.

Depends on what you mean by democratization. If you mean the main part of the country's citizen have the most leverage on country's general guidance by simple weight effect, then yes, and it is probably already the case for China. If you mean "representative political system with elections as done in some Western countries" then maybe this political system should be fixed before asking other people to try it.

Yeah, I didn't mean to say China would democratize.

Rereading, I see how it can be read that way.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#234

Post by markhahn »

lispm wrote: post #43
lmm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a clear sharp line where e.g. Estonia is a "real" US interest and Crimea isn't? I mean NATO membership is a line, but it's not feeling as solid as it used to.

A next field of conflict is Belarus, which tries to distance itself from Russia. It's not NATO, it's not a country with a security guarantee like the Ukraine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit... ) , it's not trying to connect itself to the EU (like the Ukraine), but still it could be a next conflict. Then there are European countries not in NATO, but cooperating with NATO, like Sweden and…

Belarus, really!?! They look like a fragment of the USSR that simply hasn't gotten the message yet. Where's the burgeoning democratic movement, where's the economic modernization?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#235

Post by mcguire »

yequalsx wrote: post #173
Gustomaximus wrote: post #77

From the article: "It needs to move toward more military integration, which means streamlining procurement. European armies use too many different weapons systems: seventeen main battle tank families compared with just one for the U.S.; 20 types of fighter planes compared with just six; and 13 kinds of air-to-air missiles compared with three." While I dont doubt there are efficiencies to be had, I feel they fail to r…

When discussing EU military capabilities one must go beyond dollar amount spent. The huge inefficiencies in the collective national militaries in terms of having an integrated force should not be discounted. Diversity of equipment at the level mentioned in the article is not a collective strength. It is a weakness. The real weakness however is the inability for the EU to collectively act militarily. Recall Kosovo and…

Specifically, diversity makes for a terrible battlefield logistics problem. It doesn't matter how many rounds of 5.56mm you have if your rifle fires 7.62mm.

Further, has the EU ever projected it'd forces outside of Europe without US backing? Can the EU put troops in the middle east or Africa collectively? (Yes, I know the individual countries can.)

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#236

Post by owebmaster »

_b8r0 wrote: post #220
bluetomcat wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how is that different from the US intervening in "non-neighbouring" countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, or the UK going to war with the "neighbouring" Falkland Islands?

1. The Falkland Islands are British territories. They are British because the population are British citizens and have repeatedly made it clear they wish to remain so. 2. The UK has never gone to war with the Falkland Islands. Argentina invaded the Falkands in 1982.

1. Just like Crimea?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#237

Post by mcguire »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #203
Gustomaximus wrote: post #77

From the article: "It needs to move toward more military integration, which means streamlining procurement. European armies use too many different weapons systems: seventeen main battle tank families compared with just one for the U.S.; 20 types of fighter planes compared with just six; and 13 kinds of air-to-air missiles compared with three." While I dont doubt there are efficiencies to be had, I feel they fail to r…

I think that is a report that is sponsored by Thyssen Krupp or by Kraus Maffei (or by both of them) - they want to push their products because the largest arms shop will dominate an integrated commands procurement process. Why is this report bullshit? Because Europe and Russia are interdependent: Europe stops buying Russian gas - Gazprom and the Russian state by extension are toast; Europe stops buying - everything t…

"Trade prevents war" was everyone's diplomatic policy for a while. Until WWI.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#238

Post by markhahn »

jerf wrote: post #82
markhahn wrote: post #70

The US is just pouting, and it's shameful. We need adults in the room, being thoughtful, pointing out, for instance, that withdrawing is not a form of strength, and only permits other countries (China) to fill the vacuum. The vote for DT was a nihilistic, anti-establishment moment from a demo that wants change but isn't willing to think about what kind of change.

"withdrawing is not a form of strength" Umm.... wasn't that almost literally Obama's position? Haven't other countries been filling the vacuum in? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to look at Trump's election precisely as a rejection of eight years of that idea? Aren't we supposed to be very afraid of Trump being a maniac with the nuclear button and using the US military to do crazy things? Obama wasn't that long ago.…

No, Obama simply wanted to shift from invasion to engagement.

Trump is purely an anti-establishment impulse (lubricated by racism, sexism, etc). To claim it's a reaction against Obama is to claim (ludicrously) that Obama == establishment.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#239

Post by geoka9 »

krakensden wrote: post #230
atsaloli wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

South Ossetia used to be part of Georgia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Yes, but it's not ethnically Georgian, which was sort of the problem. That wikipedia article toes the Georgian line, which is sort of disappointing, but they do cite the EU report (via the 'world socialist news', which I don't really want to cite) that the pretext was manufactured. The Russian point of view is that they were stopping an ethnic cleansing right on their border, before it could get too far. It's not a c…

> The Russian point of view is that they were stopping an ethnic cleansing right on their border, before it could get too far. It's not a crazy point of view

No, it's not crazy, it's just pure propaganda. 25% of Georgian Ossetians lived (and continue to live) outside of South Ossetia[1]. Not to mention that the Russians were happy to allow the _real_ ethnic cleansing of Georgians to happen after their invasion[2]. And the Ossetian militia had been shelling Georgian villages before it all happened[3] (most probably, with weapons provided by Russia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_...

http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_...

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#240

Post by ced »

gbog wrote: post #119
del82 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but it would take more than political reform to make China an attractive landing spot. Pollution and food safety are also big problems, for example, to the extent that my spouse (who is Chinese) and I have discussed and rejected the idea of raising our children in China, independent of qualms about the political system.

Food issues is the very reason for me to raise my kids in China. They learn to use chopsticks before forks and knives. They eat rice daily and have no desert. I sometime had to literally tell my daughter: "if you do not eat this chocolate cake, I'll not give you more bone soup". There is a very big food problem... in the US. Also, there is a very annoying problem with people of other colors in the West. I do not want…

That's interesting. Would you mind going into specifics? Are you American? How long have you been there, and what are the main challenges? I see you're in Beijing. I lived in Kunming, and it did seem like a pretty appropriate place for having a family. Are you concerned about the pollution levels? What kind of school do you send your kids to, if any?
Post reply on HN