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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

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Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you living in the same world as the rest of us? Sure, there are people who fulfill the stereotype that you've repeated here. But among the nerdy people I've known you'll find some great people with rich, full lives. People who spend their work lives searching for evidence of dark matter can also climb mountains and have great family lives. Telemetry engineers who spend their days working on RF systems can spend t…

This is an all too common occurrence with "nerds" such as yourself on Hacker News: You are perhaps intelligent and high IQ. You are perhaps a successful telemetry engineer, yet you are BLIND when it comes to even a BASIC understanding how everything operates socially. Raw intelligence by itself, is scoffed at by the general population. Outside of your tight knit nerd-circle or a back office server room in Silicon Val…

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I suspect the differences of opinion between you and the person you replied to may be due to age differences.

I was a nerd in high school and was picked on when I wasn't being out-right ignored. My college experience was noticeably better, but the stereotypical extroverted "jock" still had me and my friends beat in the dating pool and other social circles. By graduation I too would have agreed that "Your local handsome extroverted bartender who can't even operate a computer takes a higher precedence than you".

However, ten years later into a highly technical career, I am constantly amazed at how beautiful my coworkers' partners are and how much respect they command from their social circles. It turns out that by the mid-thirties intelligence, and the success that comes with it, are incredibly attractive qualities. Most of these coworkers were introverted outcasts like me in school, but it's hard to ostracize someone in the prime of their life with a beautiful spouse, intelligent children, and a six figure salary.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama (almost) fixed this. The Affordable Care Act extended Medicaid coverage from the absolute indigent, to those making up to 133% of the poverty line in their state, something around $16,000 per year. The group that is in a bad spot are those right above that number, as even though their premiums are subsidized, deductibles are anywhere from 2400 to 6400 per annum. That said, you are right the dead are everywhere.…

Western-style poverty (i.e. little work + wealth transfers adding up to approx $15-20k/year) doesn't kill. We have various randomized control trials which demonstrate this. Giving poor people money doesn't significantly affect health: http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/2/687 The medicaid expansion similarly had no statistically significant effect on health, though it does make people feel better: https://www…

The RCT you cite examines the effects of "wealth shocks" (read: unexpected winnings) in a population of Swedish lottery winners on mortality and health care utilization, in a country that already has access to taxpayer-funded universal health care. The state pays 97% of all medical costs there [1]. Using this to support your claim borders on intellectual dishonesty IMO.

Re: Medicaid, it's difficult to find high-quality health care in the US as a Medicaid patient, mostly because practices are free to turn you away simply because you're a Medicaid patient. "We don't take Medicaid". That's it. One of the major academic health systems here (in Oregon) systematically directed all Medicaid and Medicare patients to a single low-resource clinic across town by policy, citing inadequate reimbursement rates. The result is long wait times and inadequate care.

[1] Glenngard, A., Hjalte, F., Svennson, M., Anell, A., & Bankauskaite, V. (2005). Health Systems in Transition: Sweden. WHO Regional Office for Europe, 2005

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would call it a comeback story with a happy ending, as I got to semi-retire at 31 in a beautiful place. The thing is I know I was able to do this because of the wealth effect, and not because I am personally better or more deserving. That's a point that many well off people miss. The experience gave me insight and empathy. I really learned how the other half live. I will never be a poverty scold because of it. I po…

No, we don't have a UBI. We have a ragbag of cash and in-kind transfers that add up to approx $20k. Go read the CBO study I linked to, it explains in detail. Why do you keep ignoring the research I've posted, and continue spreading myths? What do you gain from it?

I read a few of the links you posted. To support a claim that "giving people money does not improve health", you cited an RCT examining Swedish lottery winners who were already covered by a UHC program. People who already have high-quality health care don't spend their lottery winnings on more health care, and winning the lottery doesn't cause significant damage to health. Great. This says nothing about the US population in question, and absolutely does not prove your original claim.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#234

This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved. The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so si…

Human worth or, as I like to call it "respect" has nothing to do with equality of outcomes.

There is a difference between benefiting materially or politically from how society is structured and social respect. There is a difference between paying someone more or less for doing a job and how you treat someone when you interact to them.

Let me put it a different way... why should you respect raw intelligence over a person's height? After all, both simply an accident of birth (genetics and early nutrition). Neither are something one achieves.

I do not respect raw intelligence. I respect personality traits such as hard work, honesty, reliability, affability and bravery. I respect achievement, not potential. To tie someone's worth to inherent traits such as intelligence is, to me, somewhat shallow.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#235

No, it confuses material success with human worth. And this is not a new human behaviour, it's just exacerbated by increasing inequality, and made more obvious when the rules of success change, favouring different social groups. American society's infatuation with gungho capitalism certainly plays a part (thanks, Edward Bernaise), but I'm convinced it's a hard wired behaviour, like our preference for attractive peopl…

Maybe you meant Edward Bernays? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

Yes. He is a saucy fellow.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the Big Bang Theory show is Reverse-Anti-intellectualism.

The Big Biang Theiry is "nerdface." The audience is lsughing at the characters, not with them.

True, but the show is not mocking intellect or intelligence, it is mocking nerdiness. Which, believe it or not, is not really that highly correlated.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#237
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an all too common occurrence with "nerds" such as yourself on Hacker News: You are perhaps intelligent and high IQ. You are perhaps a successful telemetry engineer, yet you are BLIND when it comes to even a BASIC understanding how everything operates socially. Raw intelligence by itself, is scoffed at by the general population. Outside of your tight knit nerd-circle or a back office server room in Silicon Val…

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I suspect the differences of opinion between you and the person you replied to may be due to age differences. I was a nerd in high school and was picked on when I wasn't being out-right ignored. My college experience was noticeably better, but the stereotypical extroverted "jock" still had me and my friends beat in the dating pool and other social circles. By graduation I too would hav…

If you're in your mid 30s, then you and I are about the same age. I'll turn 33 in a few months.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#238

This is pretty silly. In any society, we must decide how to distribute the resources generated by that society. So you make the rules, set up enforcement, and plod along, making changes as you go, as far as you dare in the face of the inevitable political machinations of everyone involved. The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so si…

>The more intelligent and clever always benefit, because they know how to use the system to their own purpose. This has been so since the beginning. [...] That's any given society

I appreciate your post and don't want to sound negative or combative, but I do think your argument's presupposition that intelligence always prevails is an interesting topic of discussion. I question the veracity of that assumption, but I don't know if other people commonly do because it appears to be widely held by individuals. In your argument you set forth that the assumptions has been true "since the beginning," because in my observation, it does not always prevail as true. The other interesting thing about it is that it is difficult to understand what exactly such a statement: intelligence always prevails, means, because intelligence is a difficult thing to measure. Is the idiotic sales guy who is really good at schmoozing successful because he is either less, or more intelligent? Perhaps he has better social intelligence. Or, perhaps it's something else: One theory might be that intellectual intelligence acts as a barrier to effective salesmanship. It's not a stretch to imagine that intellectual curiosity or other personal considerations (ethical or emotional) could get in the way of an effective sales guy's social instincts and intuition.

And what can we say about this presupposition in the long run: 'it has always been the case, since the beginning,' as you said, but what does it mean? Since the beginning of society? So does that take us back up our evolutionary tree: many of the species we evolved from surely had complex societies, as well, and can we say that the more intelligent always survived? It does not appear this is necessarily always the case. Evolution does not appear to be exactly an optimization process that takes a linear path. It is a process of natural selection of random gene mutations. So while our particular species of ape had a particular mutation that endowed us with brainpower at the cost of bite force (http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040322/full/news040322-9.htm...), other species survived with mutations that provided different advantages that did not have the same benefit to intelligence: evolution apparently does not predicate the intelligent and clever will always survive. It may even be true that everything is even evolving to be more intelligent or clever.

Looking at society, I find too much evidence against the idea that the intelligent and clever are always benefiting, as you say. There are just too many examples: Tesla, Grothendieck, Turing, Gaudi, James Watson, Bobby Fischer are some of the most incredibly intelligent and clever individuals of the last century, but all had misfortune due to issues of fitting in with society. How many other bright people do you know that had issues fitting in with society, that never made it to the fame of those individuals? I imagine many, many more bright and clever never reached the point of earning credence as such from society -- it seems if it there are so many of our greatest minds having suffered misfortune post earning social credence, many, many more suffered it prior, and had limited success.

It seems that in our extremely complex and politicized society that the idea that the more intelligent and clever always benefit seems even more of a stretch. Even academia, which an institution created as a meritocracy for intelligence, famously struggles to maintain such status (given, it's much closer to true in the hard sciences).

I appreciate the spirit your post which promotes competition.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#239
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just pointed out the problem with vocational education. Going to law school is a vocational education, as is getting an education to become a mechanic. Vocational educations take years (sometimes almost a decade) to complete. From the time you start your vocational education to the time you finish it, the market can drastically change (see Law and nursing). That lucrative job that you thought was waiting…

I don't think fully automated cars will have as drastic an impact on mechanics as 3D printed cars. A better question to ask is this: What happens to all the mechanics when getting an entirely new vehicle is cheaper than paying to have it fixed? The maintenance required of a 3D printed car will also probably be automated. There's no reason why we can't have robots replace tires, brake pads, and align wheels. Heck, the…

We already know how that is going to play out. Go ask your local radio and TV repairman.

(Although they weren't helped by the fact that transistorized designs simply didn't have parts that were expected to burn out on a regular basis.)

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western-style poverty (i.e. little work + wealth transfers adding up to approx $15-20k/year) doesn't kill. We have various randomized control trials which demonstrate this. Giving poor people money doesn't significantly affect health: http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/2/687 The medicaid expansion similarly had no statistically significant effect on health, though it does make people feel better: https://www…

The RCT you cite examines the effects of "wealth shocks" (read: unexpected winnings) in a population of Swedish lottery winners on mortality and health care utilization, in a country that already has access to taxpayer-funded universal health care. The state pays 97% of all medical costs there [1]. Using this to support your claim borders on intellectual dishonesty IMO. Re: Medicaid, it's difficult to find high-quali…

The state provides health care, yet there are still disparities between rich and poor. This confirms my second and third studies which show health care doesn't help.

This study also shows that (as postulated by folks down thread) that money doesn't change health behaviors.

That's the point - health disparities are mostly not caused by either health care or wealth. They are caused by something else (e.g.diet, exercise, genetics).

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