Refugees Welcome • Hacker News Board

Re: Refugees Welcome

#231

Post by rmxt » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:48 PM UTC

jbssm wrote: post #224

rmxt wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we…

> I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin. Also, so, know you are telling us that these people choose to migrate West, they are not really forced to do so? It's quite an incoherent sentence from someone defending (as I do actually) that m…

Is it that hard to fathom that there's multiple variables at play in deciding when one decides to leave their homeland for greener pastures? Cultural factors, economic factors, social factors, the presence of war/peace are all things that play into an individual's decision to pack up and move. Different people have difference tolerance for different things.

As a thought experiment: someone with a higher tolerance for different cultures and a lower tolerance for violence is more likely to move sooner than someone with an equivalent tolerance for violence and a lower tolerance for different cultures, no?

> But well, we all know coherence and politics don't really go well together with most of the people.

Mhmm, I can definitely see that. Make better arguments than "Muslims are scary!" and you wouldn't have to resort to underhandedness.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#232

Post by michaelbuddy » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:51 PM UTC

chki wrote: post #167

gozo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the people who oppose immigration tend to have very nice views on women, society, gays, religion etc? Maybe the problem is that some Germans don't respect others people freedom to think whatever they want.

I'm from Germany and do not oppose immigration and/or hosting refugees. I agree with you that especially some people opposing immigration have a twisted worldview on these topics. However, I think your last sentence is really problematic. People have the freedom to think what they want; but I think that the fundamental values of our society (freedom, democracy, equality) have to persist and I would not accept _anybod…

you don't oppose hosting refugees, but you aren't going to have any in your home or directly funding I bet. Most people who are ok with it, or claim to be, are suspiciously not directly dealing with it. surprise surprise. Not only that but Germany is actively censoring opinions against it, including through facebook youtube and other URLs. That's the thing, people don't have the freedom tho think what they want in this case.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#233

Post by sp332 » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

danmaz74 wrote: post #184

mc32 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most latin immigrants are economic refugees and those escaping local gangland violence rather than regime violence.

"Economic refugee"? This is some way to make a word lose its meaning. At this point any immigrant would become a refugee. "A refugee is a person who is outside their home country because they have suffered (or feared) persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, or political opinion; because they are a member of a persecuted social category of persons; or because they are fleeing a war." https://en.wikipedi…

Sigh: According to the researchers, a lack of protection of migrants in the region was based on a "false distinction" between a forced and an economic migrant, instead of focusing on the real and urgent needs some of these migrants have. The report suggested that a better term would be "forced humanitarian migrants", who moved for the purpose of their and their dependents' basic survival. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee#Economic_migrants

Re: Refugees Welcome

#234

Post by michaelbuddy » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:54 PM UTC

crdb wrote: post #229

caseysoftware wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correction: Germany is believed to handle thousands per day, just as Hungary has handled more than 2k/day throughout August: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/01/trains-of-refug... As a country of 80M people (Germany), they can probably handle quite a few but there's a point when the demographic shift is going to be.. unpleasant. Most immigrants don't leave their old practices behind and in most cases, that's…

What is important is that the rule of law and individual rights do not break down or become unequally applied. If justice and the police scale with the influx, refugees can integrate well and fast, even if their food and home practices might look different. If you let ghettos develop, you have a problem. In your example, the solution is not to let women or gays be oppressed, and not allow sharia courts to supercede t…

We know for a fact that the rule of law and individual rights break down. News in canada yesterday just had a disabled canadian who couldn't move into housing because it was a muslim-only housing project which was unequally applied by the canadian govt. We also know that in Sweden, France, migrants are given a free pass even when rioting, robbing and hurting the local populace. Sweden lets rapists walk after really small sentences relative to the violence of the crime. Do they deport? No. Good luck with your dreamy views.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#235

Post by rmxt » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:56 PM UTC

jbssm wrote: post #228

rmxt wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we…

> Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you. No, it seems you have no interest in being coherent. How is a newly arrived refugee/migrant a Muslim from a Western country? Also, the data VERY CLEARLY states than more than 2/3 of the Muslims livi…

Ah, so no source. Great!

Let me simplify it for you:

1. Above, you are lamenting the fact that Western countries allow Muslims in. (I shed a single tear for your cause.)

2. You suggest that "we" (presumably Western Christians) should be afraid of Muslims because the majority believe that "non-believers" should be stoned, etc.

3. You present "evidence" that shows that the majority of Muslims that currently live in particular Middle Eastern countries subscribe to those beliefs.

4. My retort: where is the evidence that Muslims refugees from those same countries to Western countries, actually believe those things at the same rate?

If you give me a poll of Muslim refugees in the USA/Germany/Sweden etc. with results that are similar to the link you've already posted, then maybe you have half a leg to stand on. Until then, enjoy your miserliness.

EDIT: It's called a reply button. I've made no claims regarding the European countries in your example. Save for Russia, those are majority Muslim countries. Islam in Russia is a special case, with certain regions having dense pockets of Muslims. [1] Cultural assimilation would suggest that immigrants will tend towards whatever mainstream beliefs prevail there, in this case Islam. The same cannot be said for most Western European countries, where irreligiousness or Christian social mores prevail. Are you suggesting that Muslim countries kick their own Muslims out? Do you know anything about those countries?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islam_in_Russia.png

Re: Refugees Welcome

#236

Post by roymurdock » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 6:05 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #213

roymurdock wrote: post #110

I think this is a great idea. It's easy to hate the concept of immigration and, by extension, the thought of millions of immigrants pouring into your home country. In fact, we're hardwired to have an aversion to this idea. Humans have always formed small units such as families or tribes in order to compete with other humans for limited resources. Immigrants are easily lumped together into a menacing tribe of competit…

One thing to remember: there is a significant difference between feeling empathy for a person and being willing to devote resources to them I felt empathy for a beggar on the streets of San Francisco this morning. Yet my money stayed in my pocket. I have other uses for it.

Just as you're not being (directly) forced to allocate resources to the homeless, the hosts aren't being forced to take in immigrants, and they are being paid rent.

So it really just comes down to how open-minded you want to be about potentially having a stranger in need as a tenant. If this sounds rewarding to you, then Refugees Welcome provides that opportunity. If not, you're free to rent to whomever you'd like.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#237

Post by crdb » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 6:07 PM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #234

crdb wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is important is that the rule of law and individual rights do not break down or become unequally applied. If justice and the police scale with the influx, refugees can integrate well and fast, even if their food and home practices might look different. If you let ghettos develop, you have a problem. In your example, the solution is not to let women or gays be oppressed, and not allow sharia courts to supercede t…

We know for a fact that the rule of law and individual rights break down. News in canada yesterday just had a disabled canadian who couldn't move into housing because it was a muslim-only housing project which was unequally applied by the canadian govt. We also know that in Sweden, France, migrants are given a free pass even when rioting, robbing and hurting the local populace. Sweden lets rapists walk after really s…

Not in every country. Singapore is fine. The only riot in 40 years was over within a couple of hours as the police that was immediately sent on site outnumbered the rioters by an order of magnitude. You occasionally see panels on the road warning you that a pickpocket was active there 4 years ago, or maybe it was a car crash, and could you please phone the number if you have any information about it.

The country has at least four major religions and four official languages with considerably larger minorities than any European country, yet, has not seen a race-based breakdown in the rule of law in decades.

It's a failure of government when the rule of law breaks down. It's up to the citizen to figure out the problems and solve them with their votes and by talking to their elected politicians. What have you personally done politically to change the situation in your own country? Personally, I've given up and emigrated to a country with better individual rights.

I'm not sure closing all borders and living in autarky (which is where the UK and US seem to be heading) is a good long term choice. Not my countries, not my problem. It saddens me a little nevertheless to see so many great countries pick it.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#238

Post by logingone » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 6:11 PM UTC

theworstshill wrote: post #182

80% of these refugees should be accepted by the US, after all, if you give weaponry to various "free" syrian armies to cause havoc in the region, you should take responsibility to take care of the humanitarian disaster that results. The other 20% - UK, France and Germany, whoever dumped weapons on that region. Unpopular as it is - the middle east was doing much better under strong dictators. They had civilization goi…

Syria has a population of ~22 million - how do you see that playing out?

Re: Refugees Welcome

#239

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 6:16 PM UTC

theworstshill wrote: post #223

michaelbuddy wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting idea. But the "U.S." isn't giving these countries weapons. Various people from the U.S. may be doing that, I know that U.S. citizens (those of which any refugees would suddenly be living next to) didn't vote to give weapons to Syrian armies. But if you have proof of it (and I'm not saying you don't) you've then got to find out how the deal was made. Also you want to blame the gun sellers and not the gun s…

You're certainly joking, or trolling too hard. This is YC and not tumblr after all where the answer to any and all problems is "white males". However, the situation in the middle east was quantitatively and qualitatively better when it had Saddam, Qaddafi et all. The region had ethnic and religious tensions for most of its existance, the difference is - before the war in Iraq, Afganistan, Lybia and now Syria, there w…

[deleted]

Re: Refugees Welcome

#240

Post by ashleyp » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 6:21 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #212

ashleyp wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankyou. That's my point. Who cares? We can still help them out of kindness and unconditionally, not expecting anything back.

There are limits, practical as well as rhetorical. Not everyone wants to be lectured about how unconditional kindness is their duty and responsibility. Not everyone wants to be told that this kindness needs to come at significant expense at a time when (insert fiscal problems here, such as Greece or the UK) are already occurring.

I'm aware, i'm from the uk. No lecture. I wasnt telling anyone what to do.