Refugees Welcome • Hacker News Board

Re: Refugees Welcome

#221

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:37 PM UTC

mcmalloc wrote: post #168

sp332 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As many as we can?

We aren't even able to take care of all the poor people that are already here, and you think we can accommodate millions more?

The amount spent on the bombs ($22k) or missiles ($110k) used to [possibly] kill enemy targets could rather easily pay to accommodate a few refugees long enough for them to either assimilate and find jobs or wait out the crisis and return home.

All it takes is a commitment to finally throttle the military materiel manufacturing economy--that was ramped up during World War 2--back to a peacetime proportion of the budget.

As it is now, the U.S. has to continually go out and look for new conflicts, and beat loudly the drums of war, to justify that high level of military spending. We have been waiting a long time to beat those swords back into plowshares, and they just keep making more swords.

I think that the entire quota of 70k refugees can be adequately provided for in less than one month just by taking the buildings on a bare handful of shuttered military bases out of mothballs.

We can accommodate millions more, and take care of the poor people that are already here. Our elected politicians prevent such occurrences using the flimsiest of justifications.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#222

Post by michaelbuddy » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:39 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #149

sschueller wrote: post #6

I would like to see the US step up its process to accept refugees. Currently it takes 18 to 24 months for refuges to be able to get on a plane the US. The US has agreed to accept up to 70k refugees yet at this rate it will take for ever while Germany has hundreds of new refuges per day. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/us-accept-thous...

I would like all the g8 countries including Russia China and Japan to accept their proportion of refugees. And also work deliberately to resolve the issues affecting the home countries. You can't just standby and hope the violence just miraculously disappears one day. It's going to take military confrontation and there will be casualties but waiting and standing by will result in greater casualties.

accept "their portion" as if countries are suddenly responsible for everyone else now.

"you can't just stand by"

yes I can. Why is it my problem? Oh is that supposed to be the guilt of the first world for cooperating amongst each other and paying taxes, I also HAVE to do all things for all people, even those I dont' like and so does my government with my tax money? Hogwash.

The propaganda of we're all "global citizens" sounds great but it doesn't work. You can't sustain a welfare system in 1st world countries when you add the numbers they are talking about here, it doesn't work. And as we know from england and france and sweden, these cultures do NOT mix into their homestay lands all that well. They bring crime with them and they usurp the welfare from the elderly of the host country. They destabilize the economy and hurt the middle class.

You can look at this in a small way. Let's say you're neighborhood isn't as nice as the one down the road. You don't just get to move in there, nor do those people suddenly have to make a space for you. And even if your neighborhood in shambles isn't your fault or even if those other people laid off your parents employment, you still don't get to just come in droves and become a resident of their neighborhood and they have to pay for your lifestyle on top of free room and board.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#223

Post by theworstshill » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #210

theworstshill wrote: post #182

80% of these refugees should be accepted by the US, after all, if you give weaponry to various "free" syrian armies to cause havoc in the region, you should take responsibility to take care of the humanitarian disaster that results. The other 20% - UK, France and Germany, whoever dumped weapons on that region. Unpopular as it is - the middle east was doing much better under strong dictators. They had civilization goi…

Interesting idea. But the "U.S." isn't giving these countries weapons. Various people from the U.S. may be doing that, I know that U.S. citizens (those of which any refugees would suddenly be living next to) didn't vote to give weapons to Syrian armies. But if you have proof of it (and I'm not saying you don't) you've then got to find out how the deal was made. Also you want to blame the gun sellers and not the gun s…

You're certainly joking, or trolling too hard. This is YC and not tumblr after all where the answer to any and all problems is "white males".

However, the situation in the middle east was quantitatively and qualitatively better when it had Saddam, Qaddafi et all. The region had ethnic and religious tensions for most of its existance, the difference is - before the war in Iraq, Afganistan, Lybia and now Syria, there was a defined pecking order. The biggest asshole had already went through all of the atrocities he had to to become what he is. After US came in, and sprinkled dollars and guns to every antigovernment faction - we now have 20 assholes in every country that vie for the title of the biggest asshole, and they're ready to do whatever it takes. All I'm saying is - take some responsibility for that. Germany and Europe as a whole isn't responsible for upsetting the order that lead to this humanitarian problem. US military adventures did.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#224

Post by jbssm » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

rmxt wrote: post #209

jbssm wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =)) It's the fear of letting people with very, very, different social standards in our countries. And it's warranted. More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death . We are not talking…

Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we…

> I'd venture to say that people, in general, that are willing to move (east to west, or west to east) are probably more inclined to adapt to the place where they are going than the ones that stay in their country of origin.

Also, so, know you are telling us that these people choose to migrate West, they are not really forced to do so? It's quite an incoherent sentence from someone defending (as I do actually) that most of these people have no choice but to leave their country because of the war.

But well, we all know coherence and politics don't really go well together with most of the people.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#225

Post by prodmerc » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:42 PM UTC

It's a good thing they're doing here.

I wish there was something like this for migrant workers, who often get treated as bad or even worse than refugees by their employers (yes, even in Germany)...

Re: Refugees Welcome

#226

Post by rmxt » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:43 PM UTC

jbssm wrote: post #220

rmxt wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we…

So, migrants are not a good sample of the population of the country they originate from. They are special in some way and by taking a 3000 Km journey trough Africa they are already Westernised even before setting foot in Europe. Makes perfect sense... I mean, makes perfect sense to try and deny reality in such an obvious way.

Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe?

The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

Re: Refugees Welcome

#227

Post by Inthenameofmine » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:44 PM UTC

s3nnyy wrote: post #131

>> Only then I realized that the way people live in Switzerland is not something you can take for granted and in the end made me move back. I agree. I lived in Germany for 20 years, now I live in Zurich and can't be any happier. Check out my post "Eight reasons why I moved to Switzerland" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t... btw.: Switzerland also takes refugees, but because they want to, n…

Interesting. Looks like I'm in the exact opposite boat. I'm a Swiss citizen and moved to a developing country (that has huge population outflow atm due to illegal immigration) to live and work.

I achieved in 2 years (from scratch, no savings whatsoever) more than I ever could in Switzerland. My standard of living is incredible because of better purchasing power, and life is so much more fulfilling because you can actually change people's lives here.

In my experience the Swiss industry is also mostly non-meritocratic and hugely biased towards authority and xenophobia. Not to mention the rigidness of work culture itself. Looks like about 10% of the Swiss would agree with me. [1]

In my opinion, if you want to be an office employee, Switzerland is awesome, but if you want to be an entrepreneur or do anything of importance for the world, Switzerland is not the place.

[1] https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/china/en/home/living-in/s...

Re: Refugees Welcome

#228

Post by jbssm » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

rmxt wrote: post #209

jbssm wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But what's the fear about letting refugees into the country? Why are people so scared of this? (genuine question =)) It's the fear of letting people with very, very, different social standards in our countries. And it's warranted. More than 50% of these refugees believe that whoever leaves the faith of Islam should suffer the death penalty and that adultery should be dealt with stoning to death . We are not talking…

Perhaps you're being downvoted because your source does not once refer to immigrants, refugees or migrants. You've presented no evidence which suggests that migrants (a particularly self-selecting group) are a uniform sampling of the population of the countries that they hail from. You've made quite an assumption there. If your polls showed the opinions of Muslims already in Western European countries, then maybe we…

> Seems like you have no interest in providing a source that proves what you're saying? What do Muslims in Western countries actually believe? The concept of cultural assimilation is not a new one, but maybe it is to you.

No, it seems you have no interest in being coherent. How is a newly arrived refugee/migrant a Muslim from a Western country?

Also, the data VERY CLEARLY states than more than 2/3 of the Muslims living in the European countries in the sample believe that the Sharia should be applied to the Muslims living there (the ones that actually live there, so, the culturally integrated ones according to you).

Care to explain where is your cultural assimilation now?

Re: Refugees Welcome

#229

Post by crdb » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #69

sschueller wrote: post #6

I would like to see the US step up its process to accept refugees. Currently it takes 18 to 24 months for refuges to be able to get on a plane the US. The US has agreed to accept up to 70k refugees yet at this rate it will take for ever while Germany has hundreds of new refuges per day. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/us-accept-thous...

Correction: Germany is believed to handle thousands per day, just as Hungary has handled more than 2k/day throughout August: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/01/trains-of-refug... As a country of 80M people (Germany), they can probably handle quite a few but there's a point when the demographic shift is going to be.. unpleasant. Most immigrants don't leave their old practices behind and in most cases, that's…

What is important is that the rule of law and individual rights do not break down or become unequally applied. If justice and the police scale with the influx, refugees can integrate well and fast, even if their food and home practices might look different. If you let ghettos develop, you have a problem. In your example, the solution is not to let women or gays be oppressed, and not allow sharia courts to supercede the governmental ones. People can retain their views so long as they don't actually go on and infringe on the rights of others, if they do they go to jail.

Singapore even outright discusses how fast infrastructure and services are growing and sets the amount of immigration for the year accordingly. I suspect if Germany really was willing to take up the majority of the million Syrian refugees (and mass immigration from any other country in distress), it would make sure to invest accordingly and be able to integrate that many as the US has done in the early 20th century [1] (so much for history). If they get it right, it might be a huge economic boom and great long term move.

As for "the common German belief/societal structures", no culture is stagnant (and clearly not German values, if you look at the 20th century alone!). Even the US is a strange mix of a dozen traditions, cultures and habits which have blended into "American".

For example, most world citizen think of the US, not Italy, when eating a slice of pizza. People call a flat white Australian, but the Australian coffee culture which is spreading globally today is a direct descendant of Italian immigration to the country. Immigrants adapt to the local custom (cf "Chinese-American" food, secularisation of the second generation, etc.) and the country adapts to its immigrants.

[1] "between 1880 and 1920 [...] brought more than 4 million Italians to America" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American) - this when the total US population in 1920 was 104 million (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_United_States_Census). How many famous Americans today, like Rudy Giuliani, Jay Leno or Madonna have Italian origins?

Re: Refugees Welcome

#230

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Sep 02, 2015, 5:48 PM UTC

jahnu wrote: post #216

jbssm wrote: post #130

Sincerely. I'm European, I'm from Euro zone. I walk in the streets in my country's capital at night and a see dozens of homeless hungry people just by walking a couple of Km. I just can't put my head around on why we should help the refugees before we help our own people. It just doesn't make any sense to me. We are giving millions to find houses for these refugees/migrants but we let our own live and die on the stre…

There were hungry and homeless people when Jews and other minorities tried to flee the Nazis. Yet it is still shameful that more was not done to let those people into safer countries. The situation is not so dissimilar now. How about the homeless are helped AND we take in the millions of refugees that won't even bump the population of Europe by even 1%.

Or help the refugees now, and when they stop coming in such large numbers, continue using the same personnel and infrastructure for domestic poverty.

If you're dealing with a person who owns no property and has no local ties, it hardly matters whether they walked from 500 miles away or have been sleeping in the alleyway behind you for the last year.