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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#221
post #220
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tell a graduate engineer about the great mathematical problems there are to solve and that solving them will protect the American people, it's quite easy to get a strong workforce behind you. And if they were just engineering small parts it was probably hard to see the whole picture, even more so to judge if it's right or wrong. However, this big PR outrage will probably have them come to their senses and crum…

Considering that neither the STASI, nor the KGB had any difficulties in recruitment, hoping for bad PR about their employer to change the mind of the choir is... Naive at best.

I'm sure both had plenty of difficulties. There must have been lots of really good people who'd never have considered working for either of them.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#222
post #122
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or... the system catches things like this all the time, this is just one that slipped through, and if the system wasn't in place, there would be many, many more incidents of this type. Maybe. (This is normally "bear-repellent amulet" type thinking, but I think there's a specific exemption in this case, in that there are good reasons why you'd see no evidence of the system's effectiveness: the government doesn't like…

> the government doesn't like to get the public riled up by terrorist threats I'm quite sure that's exactly what the government likes to do. That's the very reason that "terrorism" is in the headlines as much as it is: it serves the government by allowing them to extend their powers and budgets enormously. Feed scary stories about "terrorism" to an uncritical public and they'll beg you to take away their "freedom" in…

The government is not the media. Terrorism headlines are sensational and grab attention, thus advertising dollars. Don't confuse the two.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#223
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also be that they're former "hackers" that were caught and turned into informants/employees/slaves in exchange for their eventual freedom. An example of this is Sabu ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabu_%28hacktivist%29 ), who would have been sentenced to 124 years in prison, but instead decided to work for the FBI.

This is a number floated as possible years of time, but it is not what he 'would have been' sentenced. We don't know because he decided to turn snitch.

...it's particularly misleading because you could be sentenced for 124 years for a several dozen different offenses but serve your time concurrently.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No there isn't a line in the sand. It's a gray issue. Ideologies and society values change throughout the history, and there is not right or wrong answer in many of those cases. Like a poster above mentioned, what IF thousands of lives are saved by sacrificing the privacy of a few million people? Is that worth it? If you say no, then what if I ask you the lives could be that of your loved ones? Just want to stress fr…

The other side is coming from fear. "Just want to stress from a different perspective, my family grew up poor in a 3rd world country, and they laugh at American's obsession with human rights and they just say "that's what people do if they never needed to worry about putting food on their table"." And you know why it's a 3rd world country? Because they lived how they had to and not how they ought to. Progress is not…

Says the guy living in a $2k a month studio in San Francisco whilst working from his $3k MacBook Pro at Starbucks?

So your answer to everyone living in fear, in let's say Juarez, Mexico is that they need to be out in the streets protesting against the psychotic drug cartels, because that's how they "ought to" live, since you know third world country and all?

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#225
post #221
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that neither the STASI, nor the KGB had any difficulties in recruitment, hoping for bad PR about their employer to change the mind of the choir is... Naive at best.

I'm sure both had plenty of difficulties. There must have been lots of really good people who'd never have considered working for either of them.

All sorts of bad employers manage to hire capable talent in this industry. I don't think the NSA is any exception. And if they treat their people well, that already puts them in the upper 50% of desirable workplaces.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#226
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No condescension intended, I am honestly just more curious -- I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. I totally agree that people have varying beliefs on this stuff and for some this might be just as noble as any other way of serving their country.

> I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, That's very unlikely to happen, because it's all classified and secret or top secret or whatever. There are a few interviews around. Here's an ex-director (He stopped being director in 1978) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b039vhp0 - this is the first time he speaks about his time at GCHQ Here's a radio documentary from 2010. h…

Just be aware that Gordon Correra's programmes about GCHQ ( and prior to that MI5 and MI6 ) are made with the co-operation of those agencies.

I have written to the BBC and asked what conditions the agencies laid-down but I did not receive a reply.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#227
I think this is less a story of the NSA/GCHQ getting caught with their pants down than it is Google and Yahoo getting caught. According to yesterday's leaks, Google and Yahoo were (and continue to in Yahoo's case) sending customer data between disparate locations across the globe unencrypted. That means that not only could NSA/GCHQ have been pulling data from it - so could China, Russia, Iran, any other nation with a reasonably developed intelligence service, organized crime syndicates, etc. We know that they collect unencrypted data against their targets. Every intelligence service does using whatever means legally available to them. That's the nature of collecting intelligence. The NSA isn't going to hurt their bottom line, but failing to take proper security measures to secure their customers' data might.

The outrage that's been pervasive throughout the tech community is based on the idea that the NSA is collecting data on everyone. This article bases a good deal of its argument on that assumption. All of the leaks have dealt with their sources and methods, though - not their targeting. I've mentioned it in previous comments, but the media does a huge disservice by not giving us any insight into who they're targeting. If the NSA/GCHQ is targeting regular people/business executives/members of their own country's government, show the evidence and let them face judgment for it. Telling people that they could be conducting surveillance on everyone does nothing but generate fear and hype, tip off legitimate intelligence targets, and now possibly cause financial damage to major internet companies.

Some problems from the article that I'd also like to address, since I see them so often:

* The NSA claims that it targets only foreigners, but it needs only 51 percent certainty that those targets are actually outside the US. That’s pretty much a coin toss.*

The whole 51 percent thing came from the Washington Post's original writeup on the PRISM slides, The quote was:

The supervisor must endorse the analyst's "reasonable belief," defined as 51 percent confidence, that the specified target is a foreign national who is overseas at the time of collection.

The NSA's wording quoted by WaPo is "reasonable belief"; WaPo's wording is "51 percent confidence". Nowhere in any of the leaked documents does anyone ever mention "51 percent", nor is it mentioned in any Congressional hearing to date. The phrases "reasonable belief" and "reasonable articulable suspicion" do come up. In the Congressional hearing from earlier this week they discuss the differences between that and "probable cause", which is a much higher standard, but to say that an NSA analyst could flip a slightly weighted coin to meet the legal criteria for targeting under FAA 702 authorities is disingenuous.

Meanwhile, the odds of an American being killed in a terrorist attack, including overseas, are about 1 in 20 million. “Your odds of dying in a terrorist attack are still far, far lower than dying from just about anything else,” the Post noted.

It's interesting that the author specifically mentions overseas locations - the author forgot about the military in doing so. It's worth noting that the NSA is an organization subordinate to the Department of Defense, and one its primary responsibilities is to provide signals intelligence to military. The same military which has employed quite a few Americans in hostile areas overseas, Since there are fewer than 20 million Americans serving in the military, one could use that figure to conclude that no serviceman has been killed during the past decade by anyone affiliated with a known terrorist organization. I recently visited a family member being treated at a military hospital. It was a bit shocking seeing the number of people moving past me in their wheelchairs using their 1-3 remaining limbs for propulsion and thinking to myself that these were the lucky ones. You can debate the merits of war and whether or not they should have been over there in the first place, but claiming that today Americans aren't getting killed by people working for the same organization that killed three thousand Americans back in 2001 is just wrong.

But in 2011, when the surveillance program was firmly in place and the anti-terrorism laws long since passed, there were nine recorded attacks in the US deemed as terrorism.

The NSA doesn't have the authority to target people on US soil. This is written in the law, rehashed at every Congressional hearing, and even confirmed by Snowden's own leaks [1]. If an international terrorist group like Al-Qaeda struck the US again, it would be fair to call out the NSA for failing to protect US citizens. You can't fault them for failing to prevent a terrorist attack hatched entirely on US soil by US persons, which is why Congress call the FBI director to answer for Boston bombings, not the NSA director.

[1] http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/758651-1qcy12-violati... (see page 6 - the section on "roamers")

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#228
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no possible reason for people to support these programs and so it is pointless and even harmful for us to talk about possible reasons. I almost agree with this, were it not equivocating two different senses of the phrase “possible reason”. There's no legitimate reason for people to support these programs and so it is pointless and even harmful for us to talk about possible reasons. There are possible reason…

So I agree with the article and I agree that NSA has gone too far. But your comment feels like you have bought a jump to conclusions mat from "office space". If, for example, during the process of obtaining clearance, you were to receive certain information that you don't have now, perhaps that would change your opinion of legitimacy of these programs from a binary 0 or 1 to a more nuanced probability distribution

If such information exists, why not just reveal it to a few influential and reasonably trusted individuals and groups (such as Schneier, EFF, EPIC, ACLU) to get the public off their backs?

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#229
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trampling over his legitimate point, which is that gears of the US government PR machine are massive, and the well-fed targets of their propaganda are well-fed and cozy, and yet the dangers of government overreach are bigger than ever. Are there potentially reasons why "terrorism" might in fact be a greater threat to our ideals and way of life then government power? Sure! Anything's possible. But such threats…

His entire point appears to be that an entire branch of discussion is out of bounds. If I'm trampling, consider it counter-trampling.

I'm beginning to see the PR value of having a clear, consistent message and sticking to it, which I believe may be the point to which your fellow commenter alludes.

A willingness by one side of a debate to consider arguments that favor the other side could be perceived (or misrepresented) as weakness and counted in favor of the debating opponent.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#230
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I agree with the article and I agree that NSA has gone too far. But your comment feels like you have bought a jump to conclusions mat from "office space". If, for example, during the process of obtaining clearance, you were to receive certain information that you don't have now, perhaps that would change your opinion of legitimacy of these programs from a binary 0 or 1 to a more nuanced probability distribution

This reminds me a bit of Russell's teapot[1]. Basically, you're saying, imagine if there existed “certain information”, which nobody can tell me about, but if they could, it would change my beliefs? Okay. Given what I do know, I think the chances of these programs being legitimate are about the same as the chances that there is “between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit”. [1]: http://…

..and while the intelligentsia are busy debating the theoretical possibility of the existence of said teapot, the powers that be are acting decisively and defining the reality.
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