It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it? • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#211

Post by vinceguidry » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 4:11 AM UTC

jlgaddis wrote: post #148

jamoes wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also be that they're former "hackers" that were caught and turned into informants/employees/slaves in exchange for their eventual freedom. An example of this is Sabu ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabu_%28hacktivist%29 ), who would have been sentenced to 124 years in prison, but instead decided to work for the FBI.

Sabu, for example, would almost certainly not be granted a clearance, even at the classified (lowest) level.

If you have immense personal leverage over someone, you can dispense with the bureaucratic paper pushing. They won't step out of line.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#212

Post by jonny_eh » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 4:22 AM UTC

1031throwaway wrote: post #109

sharkweek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No condescension intended, I am honestly just more curious -- I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. I totally agree that people have varying beliefs on this stuff and for some this might be just as noble as any other way of serving their country.

Read this guy's tweets: https://twitter.com/justinschuh I'm certainly not a fan of his ideology, but he gives an insight from someone who came from the NSA and is supportive of the executive branch's behavior.

Is this a Google security engineer publicly stating that he sees nothing wrong with the NSA accessing all of Google's traffic? I can't believe that he'll stay employed by Google for long. At least, I hope he won't be.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#213

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 4:43 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #209

jumby wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

screw it, i'll repost my comment here too. I know i'll get the down-vote brigade but meh: Here's what bugs me about all the people chiming in about how messed up this all is. It's like you all think we live in some sort of utopia whereby we are the only ones doing this sort of surveillance. Every single sophisticated foreign intelligence is doing this back at us, their citizens and their enemies - probably with more…

Before every gets up in arms about this, consider the world in which we live first. We live in a world where a foreign power invaded our soil, captured our capital and burnt it to the ground, and we did not suspend our Constitution to deal with the threat. We live in a world where an internal faction, in rebellion, threatened to end our existence as a country, and we did not suspend our Constitution to deal with the…

> Lincoln did suspend habeas corpus, and legal scholars can argue over whether it was done in the proper form

There's not really much debate on the matter -- from the contemporary decision in Ex Parte Merryman and the numerous other district court and circuit court decisions finding against the suspension until it was abandoned up through a chain of decisions repeating its logic (the most notable recent example being Hamdi v. Rumsfeld), the pretty clear weight of decisions from the courts -- and there's not a whole lot of contrary scholarship -- has been that, to the extent that the writ can be suspended, it can't be suspended unilaterally by the executive branch.

> the Constitution does permit the suspension in times of rebellion.

Actually, the Constitution does not expressly permit the suspension of habeas corpus in any circumstances, it (in Art. I, Sec. 9, among limits on Congress' powers) prohibits the suspension of the writ of it with some exceptions to the prohibition.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#214

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 4:58 AM UTC

jumby wrote: post #47

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

screw it, i'll repost my comment here too. I know i'll get the down-vote brigade but meh: Here's what bugs me about all the people chiming in about how messed up this all is. It's like you all think we live in some sort of utopia whereby we are the only ones doing this sort of surveillance. Every single sophisticated foreign intelligence is doing this back at us, their citizens and their enemies - probably with more…

> Fundamental extremists do exist and want to destroy Americans at any cost (including their lives)

No, they don't want to destroy Americans, they want to destroy America through terror. Killing Americans is a means, not the ends.

And, on the other side, American patriots do exist and want to preserve the freedoms that define America at any cost (including their lives).

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#215

Post by dangero » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 5:09 AM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

I once met a young man who just graduated from college and started working for the NSA. During a Microsoft Kernel Drivers conference I grabbed a few minutes at my hotel gym and we struck up a conversation; or should I say he forced a conversation out of me. I generally mind my own business when working out.

It honestly didn't seem too far off the "Good Will Hunting" recruiting scene. From the start of the conversation all he wanted to talk about was what he did, but at the same time was incredibly vague. When I asked him for a little clarifying information just to keep my coherence of the conversation, he couldn't contain the gloating huge smile on his face. He responded, "I'm not allowed to say. It's classified." At that moment I understood why he had abruptly started a conversation with me. It was as if the whole conversation up until that point had been a setup for him to tell me how cool he was. Of course, I didn't see it that way, but the reality distortion field that he lived in left him with no question that he had the coolest job ever. There didn't appear to be any awareness in his reality that perhaps I intentionally didn't apply to the NSA, nor would I accept an offer from the NSA if one was given.

People like this exist. I know living in a progressive city it seems hard to believe, but not everywhere is like that, and there are people who have positive feelings, even today, towards the US war machine. People who believe we aren't at a juncture where we should take a step back and reflect on what we are doing in the world.

One other hypothesis I have on NSA workers is that working for the NSA is working for the most powerful government in the world. Some people crave power more than even wealth, and some of those people see the US government as the ultimate power on earth. I can't necessarily argue with that logic. That may also be a motive to work for the NSA.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#216

Post by humannature » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 5:10 AM UTC

where is the technical proof that they actually hacked into google's fiber? Put some diagrams on a piece of paper and at the top it says TOP SECRET//SI//NOFORN and everyone automatically believes it?

although I'm not totally doubting it, just want to see some proof.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#217

Post by emiliobumachar » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 5:14 AM UTC

jumby wrote: post #71

angersock wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why wouldn't we surveil their cell phones, email and IM accounts?" Because we're Americans, goddamnit, and that's not what we do .

You must live in a utopia where there are no evil-doers.

Or in a dystopia where sometimes evildoers are inside -gasp- the government itself.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#218

Post by abraininavat » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 5:23 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #166

Zigurd wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let's hear your defense of this. EDIT: Well since you have the power to channel the mind of the beltway security gnome, let's hear their defense of it.

You really can't discern between someone who can imagine NSA employees who believe in what they're doing, and someone who supports the NSA? Oh, wait. This is an Internet message board. Of course you can't.

Why the childish tone in the midst of people trying to have a serious discussion?

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#219

Post by theboss » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 5:25 AM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

I'll probably get buried here but that's okay. The graduate school and university I go to churns out employees to three letter agencies probably at the highest rate that I know of.

I also have grad classes with many current employees amd contractors. They are regular nerds. They like building things. They like breaking things. Most of all, they are really smart and talented and pretty straight edge. Usually from a small town.... I have nothing bad to say about any of them. Honestly great people.

They a lot of times end up in the government because of really huge scholarships they give you like hot cakes where I'm at. 20k a year stipend plus free school room board books conferences. After that they are required to work for a few years in the government.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#220

Post by vkou » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 5:34 AM UTC

wellboy wrote: post #25

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

If you tell a graduate engineer about the great mathematical problems there are to solve and that solving them will protect the American people, it's quite easy to get a strong workforce behind you. And if they were just engineering small parts it was probably hard to see the whole picture, even more so to judge if it's right or wrong. However, this big PR outrage will probably have them come to their senses and crum…

Considering that neither the STASI, nor the KGB had any difficulties in recruitment, hoping for bad PR about their employer to change the mind of the choir is... Naive at best.