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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#41

Post by [deleted] »

Cookingboy wrote: post #31
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

What I'm about to say may be too unpopular on HackerNews. Have you considered the possibility that not everyone shares the same moral standard and ideology? People came from different backgrounds and have different experiences, and most things are not black and white, but different shades of gray in this world. I'm sure there are people who consider the Fourth Amendment to be obsolete just like there are people who c…

[deleted]

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#42

Post by selmnoo »

JimboOmega wrote: post #4

"Now, Silicon Valley needs to join them." - because we otherwise approve of the snooping, but for this latest outrage? I'm honestly wondering - what's the other side of this? Who's defending and explaining this? I have not seen an article that "takes the other side" in some time, and that might be a result of the echo chamber that is the bay area... Or it might be the result of an "intelligence community" that really…

In a way, we (or at least, the decision-makers in the valley at least) do approve of the snooping.

Google did something very drastic when it was found out that the Chinese were looking into people's e-mails: they pulled out from China. They were lauded for this move: we all said it was courageous for a company to do this, it was morally correct, and so on we went with praise. But what are they going to do now with the knowledge from recent revelations? Pulling out would mean an end to the money coming in. Are they going to do that? Are they truly going to do something drastic, something substantial?

I'm of the opinion that nothing will basically change. Having talked with many tech CEOs I've learned that the people making the decisions just don't care about this (and those that do, care about it less than they care about making money). What's more -- a lot openly declare this is needed for a functioning society -- John Doerr was on the verge of saying this in the Arrington interview. I might sound jaded and defeated when I say this, but I think this is really it. I don't think our future will have considerably less snooping going on, this will go on, little will change.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#43

Post by tptacek »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

Most are members of the overwhelming majority of software developers who do not participate in online forums like HN, which is a reason they may seem alien to you.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#44

Post by DanBC »

marvin wrote: post #8
kghose wrote: post #5

I don't know. If some one charged me with gathering intel I would be drawing up all sorts of battle plans, including weakness analyses like these. Hell, I would even try them out in the field. I would consider this my JOB.

The relevant questions here would be _who_ tasked you to do this and _why_. Working on technology to be used for indiscriminate surveilance is simply outside of my ethics. I would resign rather than do this job. Obviously not everyone agrees, but there are plenty of tech people who have a strong moral compass which prevents them from doing this kind of work.

What if your task was to find weaknesses in operating systems?

You join the organisation, and are told that "the enemy" is using a particular OS, and it is your job to get as many exploits for that OS as possible. Those exploits are passed along to someone else to actually deploy.

So far, you have no idea that your organisation is spying on citizens of its own country.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#45

Post by sharkweek »

Cookingboy wrote: post #31
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

What I'm about to say may be too unpopular on HackerNews. Have you considered the possibility that not everyone shares the same moral standard and ideology? People came from different backgrounds and have different experiences, and most things are not black and white, but different shades of gray in this world. I'm sure there are people who consider the Fourth Amendment to be obsolete just like there are people who c…

No condescension intended, I am honestly just more curious -- I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things.

I totally agree that people have varying beliefs on this stuff and for some this might be just as noble as any other way of serving their country.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#46

Post by droopybuns »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

Maybe the security community could have a discussion about whether it's time to start shaming people like TheGrugq.

The people who are working for the NSA are people in the security community. You can see it in the phrasing on some of the material that's been release (WIN! stood out to me w/r/t one of the previously released docs regarding some MITM scenario).

Obviously there are some very smart people in the community who are working as contractors for the government. Ostensibly this community has had a rich tradition of civil liberties, and the current generation is now selling them out for as much money as they can at the fastest rate possible.

Two years ago, we had people like Charlie Miller saying "No more free bugs."

Look where we are today and ask yourself if Charlie has ever had any ideals outside of looking out for number one.

I am turning sour on the security community.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#47

Post by jumby »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

screw it, i'll repost my comment here too. I know i'll get the down-vote brigade but meh:

Here's what bugs me about all the people chiming in about how messed up this all is. It's like you all think we live in some sort of utopia whereby we are the only ones doing this sort of surveillance.

Every single sophisticated foreign intelligence is doing this back at us, their citizens and their enemies - probably with more resources and state sponsorship. China, Russia, Israel, Iran, etc. Why wouldn't we continue to push the boundaries and try and have a leg up on this? Should we bury our heads in the sand and hope that China doesn't pwn our entire national electric grid? (google it)

Additionally, these actors are directly targeting and stealing intellectual property, reverse engineering and compromising state secrets in order to gain military & intelligence advantages directly from US based companies (see Boeing - google it).

State actors are embedding backdoor trojans into US destined products (example: look at the wikipedia page on Huawei)

Fundamental extremists do exist and want to destroy Americans at any cost (including their lives). Why wouldn't we surveil their cell phones, email and IM accounts?

Before every gets up in arms about this, consider the world in which we live first.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#48

Post by ewzimm »

bsgreenb wrote: post #40
duairc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities. And they're right. You don't need to play devil's advocate. The devil has enough advocates.

Trying to identify the motivations of an action from the perspective of the perpetrator doesn't mean that one agrees with their actions. Rather, it's a way of getting a better understanding of the problem For example, it's useful to look at the causes of various evil historical deeds because they shed light on how to prevent them from occuring. To say that exploring the causes of these deeds is tantamount to supporti…

Unfortunately this kind of thinking dominates American politics. We can't even consider why our opponents do what they do. But many people in tech have indulged in accessing secured computers. It's easy to see how somebody on one side could be swayed to the other without acting irrationally.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#49

Post by McPants »

rhizome wrote: post #18
denzil_correa wrote: post #17

>American tech companies, in other words, are now the Huaweis of everywhere else. This can only stop IF the companies proactively make an attempt to get out of bed from the organizations which hold a gun over their head. Currently, the companies want to "spy" (for marketing, advertisements etc.) on their customers as much as governments.

Given the existence and current legality of NSLs and other tools, they likely cannot get out of bed without a legal repudiation of the third-party doctrine. Until then, they can be compelled to stay in bed whether they want to or not.

Could the companies that are under threat of legal action work together and risk the threat all at once?

What I am saying is that if one company such as Google was to breach their gag order from the government regarding these things then they would be in a pretty bad situation which could result in a major loss of money to the company. However a lot of these tech companies are American and for them to all breach the gag order at once would have a large impact on the already struggling economy. Could they not use this potential economic disaster as a get out of jail token?

I mean it's kinda what the banks did with the too big to fail stuff. Putting a lot of companies in jeopardy at once could force the government to not act on prosecuting them.

I could also be talking out of my butt.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#50

Post by DanBC »

sharkweek wrote: post #45
Cookingboy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm about to say may be too unpopular on HackerNews. Have you considered the possibility that not everyone shares the same moral standard and ideology? People came from different backgrounds and have different experiences, and most things are not black and white, but different shades of gray in this world. I'm sure there are people who consider the Fourth Amendment to be obsolete just like there are people who c…

No condescension intended, I am honestly just more curious -- I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. I totally agree that people have varying beliefs on this stuff and for some this might be just as noble as any other way of serving their country.

> I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things,

That's very unlikely to happen, because it's all classified and secret or top secret or whatever.

There are a few interviews around.

Here's an ex-director (He stopped being director in 1978) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b039vhp0 - this is the first time he speaks about his time at GCHQ

Here's a radio documentary from 2010. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p007fqc4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rmssw

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