Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 313 posts

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#221

Post by okanat »

flopbob wrote: post #201
amarant wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Your comment is 100% incorrect. In the EU everything is permitted unless explicitly forbidden. Source: I am European.

It's sometimes very telling when other people think of you and your country. While I do agree we in Europe have sometimes too many rules, but I just can't understand the American obsession with freedom and being able to do things to the detriment of society

It's also quite weird that Americans are the first ones to go full judgemental mode as it is demonstrated in this comment section. When I visited there, I also found people to be overly reactive and judgemental of seemingly minor things and quite obsessed with wealth. I love the fact that nobody gives a flying fuck about anything other strangers are doing in Europe.

That's not to say that there are no bureaucratic inefficiencies in Europe. There are a lot. France, Germany, Nordics and other members of the EU / EEA should strive to strengthen the industries and cut out the bullshit. It is a must to wake up from Boomer-pensioner-induced sleep and NIMBYsm, not for joining a stupid arms race but being able to provide a peaceful prosperity for our children. It is possible to enjoy quite a lot human rights and I think they are not a blocker.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#222

Post by disqard »

philipallstar wrote: post #159
boothby wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does it say about progress that the same laws that protect human rights also stifle innovation? Innovative methods to destroy human life are "stifled" by measures intended to preserve human life. What to you mean by "progress" -- the betterment of the human condition, or the enrichment of the few and powerful?

If someone gets rich because they provide an affordable useful service to millions then that is definitely progress. They should get rich.

This sounds like PG's essay on the front page (today or yesterday).

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#223

Post by overfeed »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #194
cccbbbaaa wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (It exempts military and national-security uses.) The EU cannot legislate on national security matters.

> EU cannot legislate on national security matters Sure. Legally, makes sense. Practically, if you want to do all those things the legislation purports to be doing for human rights, you just have to get the right general or spy or police chief on your side. That makes the whole scheme a bit of a boondoggle. Lots of friction. Remarkably little tangible benefit.

> Sure. Legally, makes sense. Practically, if you want to do all those things...

If you had just owned up to how you were mistaken about EU legislative limits - confidently stated - I probably would have taken everything else in your initial comment at face value.

Your doubling down into unfalsifiable territory has me thinking your arguments are feelings-based with post-facto justifications.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#224

Post by mnewme »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #211
lava_pidgeon wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a constant change in politicians and parties and views among people (hello 2022!) about policy topics inside the EU all the time. Do you seriously think politics in the EU stays the same?

It absolutely has. It's always more regulation, more bureaucracy and more red tapes. They are just creating more barriers to keep themselves employed and to expand the reach of their authority.

Actually right now the reverse is happening. GDPR will become easier there is simplification coming, there will be less national goldplating

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#225

Post by epolanski »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #131
epolanski wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe Europe can build models that can compete with American ones. 1. In order to build competitive models, you need to offer competitive salaries and equity. Europe has very old and inadequate corporate law virtually everywhere but in UK. European labs cannot attract talent that can build such competitive models with the proper lack of incentives. 2. In order to build competitive models, you need gargantua…

> In order to build competitive models, you need to offer competitive salaries and equity. Europe has very old and inadequate corporate law virtually everywhere but in UK. It is a fact that a much smaller amount of money is available in the EU for startup investments. But in which sense it the corporate law inadequate? As far as I am aware the laws allow quite a lot of freedom in setting up the corporate governance f…

There's no stock option mechanisms available in most of EU.

You get someone you cannot tempt him with "do a great job and get X amount of equity".

In Italy it is not enforceable, even if you sign a contract.

With this, startups can only compete with bigger companies on salary, hard, and don't get equally motivated hires to get a piece of a company. You get people there for the paycheck.

It's also unfriendly to venture capitalists, for different reasons.

So corporate law is a major problem in most of EU, as it's unfriendly both to investors and employees.

Also, firing people is hard in EU. You hire the wrong person, you're stuck with it.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#226

Post by epolanski »

ben_w wrote: post #110
epolanski wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deepmind lab is a US company.

By ownership perhaps. Founded in the UK, then bought by Google, it still has its HQ in London.

Does it matter?

If they develop the "next big thing" and the next US administration decides its for US citizens only, nothing has changed.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#227

Post by frollogaston »

satvikpendem wrote: post #213
frollogaston wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NIMBY is something different, but I'm a proud NIMBY too. People can vote for what happens in their own towns.

At the expense of the overall economic health of everyone. See the rents in San Francisco for examples compared to places where countries actually build, like Singapore and China.

If that's good long-term for the people in SF who've already invested their time and money there, shouldn't be any other way. It's also not some zero-sum game where voting against development always benefits them at the cost of others; sometimes they want development.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#228

Post by frollogaston »

BjoernKW wrote: post #204
bluefirebrand wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see how protecting the commons from being exploited by hypercapitalists for their own profit is protecting the rights of the average person?

I don't subscribe to ideological categories such as "hypercapitalists". So, no, I don't see that.

These questions are getting more loaded each time. "You don't see how the EU fighting pure evil is a good thing?"

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#229

Post by nradov »

mnewme wrote: post #212
nradov wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you claiming that human rights are subjective and not universal? Or that it's acceptable for the EU to violate human rights if the USA is worse in some ways? Belarus is a European country. How is freedom of the press doing there?

I don’t know why you think the American definition of human rights is universal? It is. Look at the freedom of press index for example. And as the US doesn’t accept foreign courts, there is not really a legal apparatus against the state outside of the US, which many European countries do have. Belarus is not part of the EU, nor did it sign many of the international human rights

I don't know why you think the EU definition of human rights matters at all?

The comment I responded to was about Europe. Belarus is part of Europe. As are Serbia, Moldova, etc.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#230

Post by JumpCrisscross »

overfeed wrote: post #223
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU cannot legislate on national security matters Sure. Legally, makes sense. Practically, if you want to do all those things the legislation purports to be doing for human rights, you just have to get the right general or spy or police chief on your side. That makes the whole scheme a bit of a boondoggle. Lots of friction. Remarkably little tangible benefit.

> Sure. Legally, makes sense. Practically, if you want to do all those things... If you had just owned up to how you were mistaken about EU legislative limits - confidently stated - I probably would have taken everything else in your initial comment at face value. Your doubling down into unfalsifiable territory has me thinking your arguments are feelings-based with post-facto justifications.

> how you were mistaken about EU legislative limits

I’m not making any legal arguments. The fact that the EU can’t legislate on those issues doesn’t change that its AI Act has those loopholes.

> unfalsifiable territory

No, I’m not. If the AI Act constrained any actual risks, that would falsify my assertion. I’m saying it in practice doesn’t. Those capabilities are still being built, just not in Europe. And they’ll still be sold to Europe, just to its governments to use however they want, not to its people.

The EU doesn’t have the power to write AI legislation for human rights purposes. It does have the power to throw gum into its AI industry’s works. It did what it could. Which is very little of the former (by constraining B2C and B2B, sort of). It did a lot of the latter.

Congress can’t do a lot of things. Passing something stupid and then complaining that the reason it isn’t competently written is because of Constitutional limits doesn’t absolve the stupid bill.

I’m not an expert on EU law or AI. But I do make capital-allocation decisions around this stuff, and I know enough to know that as currently configured the only main AI business to do in the EU is in selling it things that kill or surveil.

Post reply on HN