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Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

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Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#221

Post by kube-system »

bluGill wrote: post #186
galangalalgol wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is wheel sppeed really the only car sensor exposed to the app? That is kind of sad.

What do you really need? Is the car moving forward or backward is the only one you can't figure out from GPS on the phone (this is possibly what they are getting from wheel speed - GPS speed is more accurate if you have a signal). There are a lot of nice to haves of course. GPS does eat phone battery so better if the car can give you that. There is a lot of other car data that is interesting, why force plugging a OBD…

Nav apps on phones will use dead-reckoning if they don't have a GPS signal, so they don't really even need the wheel-speed sensor, but I'd guess they use it just to increase accuracy.. e.g. in a long tunnel.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#222

Post by kube-system »

achierius wrote: post #24
esalman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way they're going to keep a modular car functioning for years without relying on frequent software updates.

Concretely, why not? If you don't get updates, there's nothing to break the thing -- and if you don't have a network connection, you don't need the security updates.

That is, if it wasn't already broken. Part of the rationale for updates is to fix problems that shipped with the vehicle.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#223

Post by kube-system »

arunabha wrote: post #60
surajrmal wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's more likely to get companies to remove mics than to make them secure.

I'm genuinely struggling to think of downsides in that. Surely the most 'secure' microphone is the one that doesn't exist in the first place?

People like to make phone calls and use Carplay/AA in their car.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#224

Post by thePhytochemist »

rconti wrote: post #22

Had to look up "yuppie button" to figure out what they were on about. Sounds like a fun fellow. Lights up all of the lights on the back of the car for funsies. Oh they're all DOT-approved, so it's probably a good idea. Definitely a safety feature. Their manifesto makes them totally believe that everyone else on the road is the problem. https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/yb/

I found the "wave damping" link inside that article a very interesting description of why not only some traffic jams happen but how we can actually drive to prevent or fix them. Thanks for posting.

This is the wave damping articl http://amasci.com/amateur/traffic/traffic1.html

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#225

Post by kube-system »

rconti wrote: post #22

Had to look up "yuppie button" to figure out what they were on about. Sounds like a fun fellow. Lights up all of the lights on the back of the car for funsies. Oh they're all DOT-approved, so it's probably a good idea. Definitely a safety feature. Their manifesto makes them totally believe that everyone else on the road is the problem. https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/yb/

It's not a terrible idea, but not a great one either. The lights on the back of a vehicle don't simply serve as attention getting lights. They also exist as signals. Lighting all of them up might get attention, but at best it conveys no information, and at worst, it may confuse observers or obfuscate the signals that those lights are supposed to be conveying.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#226

Post by kube-system »

derwiki wrote: post #137
Sayrus wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading that (some?) phones in airplane mode can still be pinged by the network to request their location and the call is answered directly by the blackbox modem rather than by Android/iOS bypassing most privacy features. Airplane mode also usually keeps Bluetooth and WiFi enabled so that's one thing to look for.

There’s always Faraday cage bags for cell phones

Yeah, they don't work though. They're about as effective as those signal-boosting stickers you could get at truck stops in the 00s.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#227

Post by rimunroe »

bluGill wrote: post #184
rimunroe wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has this ever happened with CarPlay? As far as I know, even if your car was made in 2013 when CarPlay was first released it should continue to work just fine with the newest iPhones. If you plug the latest iPhone into your 2013 car, you would see the latest version of CarPlay pop up on the screen. I know there's a new version of CarPlay which requires support from the car maker, but I think CarPlay support is a binar…

I would hope so, but I don't trust computer makers. There are people who still use cars made in the 1960s as their daily driver (probably only a handful in the US). Most parts are still available, and if not you can make them in your garage with affordable tools (metal lathes are rare but not unheard of in a home shop). Apple switch to OSX, m68k to PPC to x86 (ARM is in progress). I had the first android phone - the…

> I don't trust computer makers

Nor should you!

> There are people who still use cars made in the 1960s as their daily driver (probably only a handful in the US).

I do like resisting the disposable economy, though I hope keeping ICE cars that old wouldn't be normal enough to be a factor in designing a product if for no other reason than emissions and safety features.

> (metal lathes are rare but not unheard of in a home shop).

Indeed. I grew up with a >1 ton metal lathe in ours, as well as a milling machine. My siblings and I would use the lathe as a climbing gym.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#228

Post by ryandrake »

mox1 wrote: post #212
ethbr1 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absent something like a component of the GDPR, I'd highly doubt the judiciary in any country is going to originate a major civil right. The correct place ELA / T&A consent should be defined is in something like the GDPR -- along with strict requirements as to what standard of consumer free choice is required for it to be enforceable.

I would prefer to take it broader and codify it in law that: 1. The terms and conditions of a product, service, etc. "primarily" aimed at a consumer have simple, human readable terms. Like a food label or similar to the broadband label. 2. The terms are presented and acknowledged PRIOR to purchasing (not after opening the package, driving off the lot, putting the DVD into the player). The company needs to find a way…

This still puts the company too much in the driver's seat. An actual "contract" or "agreement" is supposed to be a meeting of the minds between two parties. It's not simply one-sided terms dictated by one party without opportunity for the other party to negotiate. And each party should have negotiating power and choice beyond "take it or leave it".

And, before you dismiss this idea with "Ha ha imagine if every cell phone provider had a custom, bespoke, negotiated contract with each customer! It can't be done!"

If providing real negotiating power and choice to your customer is too much of an overhead burden, then maybe the company should not be allowed to make the "agreement" a condition for buying/using the product.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#229

Post by m463 »

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 wrote: post #139
bradley13 wrote: post #91

I would like to see some legal and regulatory steps. When we purchased our Ioniq, there was no agreement for data sharing, etc. - we have basically a cash register receipt, nothing more. Whenever there is a major update, an insanely long T&A appears on the screen. No one is going to read it. The only options are "accept" or clicking it away. If you click it away, it comes back the next day. It cannot possibly be lega…

This is the kinda of thing that was preventing me from seriously considering Tesla. I accept that there is a lot more tech involved so some updates are necessary, but turning cars into cells on wheels made everyone way too eager to not ship finished product.

I would love for there to be a robust jailbreak community for tesla cars.

I've also heard that the defunct fisker cars might have this sort of hacking community - you might be able to get the source code for the car.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#230

Post by singleshot_ »

kube-system wrote: post #218
msgodel wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's arguably a violation of the CFAA.

It wouldn't be a very solid argument. Telematics are universally disclaimed in owners manuals. A good chunk of modern owners manuals are legally-required disclaimers of various sorts which are all deemed valid for those reasons. And a ruling that it doesn't matter because "nobody reads that" wouldn't be a good thing either -- basically that would make most SaaS engineer into criminals.

Further:

Safer roads and more convenient travel comport with public policy; and,

No one in 2025 has a reasonable expectation they are not being surveilled by their new car.

(FWIW, I’m against surveillance transport but there is no reasonable way to say these contracts of adhesion are unconscionable under US law).

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