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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#221

Post by taeric »

throwaway049 wrote: post #205
endisneigh wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I’ve read the same indoor pollution exists with induction even if not vented. The confounding variable is that induction generally is present in new construction which will have proper ventilation. TLDR: it’s a function of ventilation

I don't have a view either way, but we can measure pollution from different cooking methods under controlled conditions so we know which is better or worse independent of ventilation. Ventilation depends partly on individual behaviour, eg I open windows in good weather and close them in winter.

Most of the in air particles will be what you are cooking...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#222

Post by osigurdson »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #66
osigurdson wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Electric resistance heat is super inefficient I know what you mean but it is actually nearly 100% efficient. The inefficient part is converting high entropy heat to low entropy electricity.

Heat pumps are significantly >100% efficient, if measured as (heat energy brought inside)/(electrical energy consumed).

Yes, because you are moving heat from one location to another. Same thing with a refrigerator.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#223

Post by hedora »

brianwawok wrote: post #171
hedora wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$50-60K is enough to buy a backup system, and not much compared to the price of a house in this area.

My whole house natural gas generator was closer to 10k and 5-10k install. Provides like 90 amps. Good for all the storms around here. I just turn off my hot tub and EV charging and I can do anything else including AC.

That works if you have natural gas service. My estimate assumes solar panels, batteries and a generator that tops the battery off in emergencies.

This year, most people with just batteries lost power due to no sun, and people with just generators lost power due to no propane delivery service/supply.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#224

Post by azinman2 »

hx833001 wrote: post #158
hedora wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

In the Boston area, I almost never lose power, at all, ever. One hour five years ago in an ice storm was an aberration. Something is very wrong in Cali.

California is a far bigger state in both population and area. Much of that area is also uninhabited, but power lines cross it. Many are quite old and not well maintained, and either start fires or are subject to other climate issues (fires, snow, high winds, etc). It’s a more challenging environment, plus PG&E is basically incompetent.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#225

Post by azinman2 »

novaRom wrote: post #173
fwungy wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Washington is unique in its hydropower positioning. It's easy to electrify in Washington because it makes sense to do so. Hydropower is cheap and clean. Unfortunately it's not a replicable model for the rest of the country.

Germany has almost no hydropower, no nuclear power anymore, but German government is continuing to insist a similar ban on natural gas in all new buildings should be introduced (or maybe already in action).

The US makes its own natural gas. Germany imports, and until recently despite warnings to do so, from Russia. It’s a different situation.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#226

Post by wtallis »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #181
jillesvangurp wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Relative to resistive heating which is of course 100% efficient. Gas is about close to 100% (you loose some via exhaust). Ground source heat pumps work pretty much anywhere. Air source heat pumps can be more challenging but can also work at more extreme temperatures. They don't stop working but their efficiency drops a bit. And of course resistive heating doesn't stop working.…

> Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Sure. When we’re talking about the temperature band they work in. Once it hits 0C the efficiency is very low, and by -10C is almost doing nothing at all. At that point you have two things happening… 1. You are using electricity to warm your coils outside to keep frost and snow off them. 2. You are using drastically inefficient heat for your home. 200-300% in their band under…

200-300% efficient is what a very bad heat pump would do under ideal conditions. Good heat pumps have a coefficient of performance above 3 for temperatures above freezing (and above 4 for only mildly chilly outdoor temperatures), and still well above 2 at temperatures around 15°F/-10°C.

My 10 year old apartment has a heat pump rated for a CoP of 2.3 at a temperature of 17°F/-8°C, which is actually below the record low outdoor temperature for this area. This isn't some exotic new equipment or a model designed for cold climates; it's what was cheap and mainstream a decade ago.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#228

Post by toast0 »

amrocha wrote: post #179
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

If "shit hits the fan" to the point that you don't have electricity for several weeks then it's unreasonable to expect to be able to shelter in your own home imo.

In the conditions where electricity is out for several weeks, transportation between your home and a community shelter may also be unreasonable.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#229

Post by baq »

implements wrote: post #178
mschuster91 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking in Euros... we have 230V power, while Americans and a few other holdouts still use 110V. The problem is, the lower the voltage the more current you need - an 1 kW vacuum draws 9 amps in the US, but 4.5 in Europe. The unit of billing - kW/h - however remains the same.

America is 120v now, I believe - and many houses have a centre-tapped neutral supply [1] which means they actually can have 240v outlets in garages, workshops, utility rooms (etc) for high power devices. [1] https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/487836/how-d...

I heartily recommend a three phase induction stove. 400V of cooking power (mine is rated at something like 8kW…?). Carbon steel pans get ready in seconds.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#230

Post by [deleted] »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #210
lumb63 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

> And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Induction is fantastic and even superior to gas in some ways (even faster for boiling water, for example). While some may still prefer gas, given that induction gives instant power and is more powerful, I have a hard time believing that it results in a "large cost to lifestyle"…

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