Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 276 posts

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#221

Post by T-hawk »

nasmorn wrote: post #69
r15habh wrote: post #53

HFT programmers earn a lot, so its all about creating value http://j.mp/p6Sl45

The guys from MIT who invented a then not explicitly illegal card counting technique earned a lot, it is all about creating value http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Blackjack_Team

They didn't create value, they figured out a way to purloin value out of the casinos. Every dollar they gained was a casino's loss.

Much of programming is indeed like that, especially in the finance industry, where your gain is usually someone else's loss. There does exist true value-creating programming though. Games are an easy one; presumably the reason a customer pays $10 or whatever for your game is that the customer perceives more than $10 in entertainment value.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#222

Post by mattmiller »

benmmurphy wrote: post #33
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

he does have a point. lawyers and doctors both work in industries that are protected. anybody can come off the street and start slinging code. you can't come off the street and start lawyering and doing surgery even if you were more capable than the average doctor or lawyer.

This is because of the BAR and the AMA. If there was an equivalent group for programmers that could get equivalent regulation this would not be the case. I think a group like that would solve a lot of the issues OP brings up.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#223

Post by GFischer »

IsaacL wrote: post #211
thomasgerbe wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, many political representatives in China are engineers.

IIRC many political figures in Latin America are doctors.

Indeed, here (Uruguay) it's, along with lawyers, the most respected profession.

Former (and probably future) president Dr. Tabaré Vázquez is an oncologist (and is an actual practitioner in between political campaigns).

So are several prominent politicians (my own political party representative, Dr. Daniel Radío, is a medical doctor as well)

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#224

Post by mechanical_fish »

wh-uws wrote: post #184
mechanical_fish wrote: post #121

Quite a few good replies in this thread already. Let me just add a couple points: Engineering, done right, is an invisible art. Doctoring and lawyering done right are intensely personal activities, service businesses with one-on-one human attention. Good engineers fade into the background. Engineers make objects and the objects speak for themselves. You probably can't name the engineer who recorded and mixed the soun…

Engineering, done right, is an invisible art... The objects become famous, not us. I think that is the exact type of thinking the thread starter wishes would change. Why is that the case? Why don't we exalt those who created such great things that we take for granted. And further more wouldn't we be better off as country if we did?

Why don't we exalt those who created such great things that we take for granted?

Because there are too many of them. Look around you. The objects you can currently see or touch have been built though the effort of, literally, tens of thousands of people. My MacBook alone is the work of a small city's worth of designers, engineers, techs, modelers, miners, carpenters, accountants, physicists, chemists, machinists, architects, caterers, truck drivers, and so on. You couldn't read all their names aloud in a week even if you knew their names.

We do give people individual credit, sometimes. The movies have credits with names in fine print. And a few lucky (?) people become archetypes: They're the ones who appear in the encyclopedia under inventors.

But mostly engineers and other builders take pride in the results. To praise a Pixar engineer, praise the movies. To praise an Apple engineer, praise the MacBook Air (which by the way is absolutely excellent). To praise my semiconductor engineering, talk about how thin your phone is or how good its reception is. Most of the credit isn't mine, but a little of it is, and that's going to be good enough.

I disagree that our country would be a better place if we all spent even more time blowing sunshine up each other's butts. Rather, I think the world benefits from teamwork: People who do their jobs effectively and consistently and take pride in the results.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#225

Post by cpeterso »

thefre wrote: post #130
CrLf wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

> In your average company, a programmer is considered a glorified mechanic or janitor, a code-monkey if you will, well below the guys that "bring in the money" like sales and marketing. It is an expense, something that the company has to live with because someone has to implement the ideas that the guys in charge come up with to help the guys that "bring in the money" bring in more money. It's worse than that. Even i…

I think this comic comparing the org charts of various tech companies is relevant to your analysis. :)

http://www.bonkersworld.net/2011/06/27/organizational-charts...

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#226

Post by mahyarm »

cmhamill wrote: post #165
Spyro7 wrote: post #123

This is a fantastic post. It is well written, and I agree with many of the authors points. Far from being angry, I think that the majority of people reading here on HN actually appreciate this type of critical analysis, and I think that it is a shame that it had to be posted on a throwaway account. However, I would like to present some alternative viewpoints for a few of the issues brought up in this post. "As a doct…

I'd like to add another point to this: in the case of doctors, you've also got to include the various types of doctors. (As the son of a general practitioner, I'm particularly sensitive about this.) General practitioners make wildly less than the various specialists which abound in the medical profession. Now, GPs can certainly make a good living; in rich areas >$200,000 a year isn't uncommon. At the same time, for,…

Why does medicine have the hazing ritual known as residency?

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#227

Post by cpeterso »

patio11 wrote: post #171
chrisaycock wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stop calling yourself a programmer That's right. The top "programmers" are entrepreneurs. Or in New York, they're portfolio managers. So it should be obvious that anyone who wants to make lots of money as a programmer should join a start-up or a trading firm.

Or AmaYaGooBookSoft, if you're capable of reading a quarterly earnings statement and an org chart. I have no special knowledge of the internal organization or compensation schemes at Google, but a blind ferret could tell you that good things happen to key employees on AdWords.

Glassdoor.com has salary reports that, though anonymous and self-reported, are seemingly accurate:

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Salaries-E1138.htm

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Microsoft-Salaries-E1651.htm

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#228

Post by Joeri »

CrLf wrote: post #85
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

"When the average corporate user spends most of his time in front of a computer, forced to use boring applications day-in and day-out, how do you think he feels about the people that build those applications?"

The thing is that those apps don't have to be boring. Most apps are low-quality, in code and design, as a result of a management philosophy that considers developers as low-value. Apple is a good counter-example. They put a high value in quality of code and design, and as a result even their settings dialogs are a pleasure to use. I've never come across a category of software that couldn't be made pleasant to use with some inspired design and coding.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#229

Post by olliesaunders »

Silhouette wrote: post #142
baha_man wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...programmers have respect on the level of assembly line workers... [in the] UK... your parents would much prefer you picked a respectable profession, like a doctor or a lawyer." In the UK, sure, being a lawyer or doctor is much more prestigious than being a programmer. However, to equate programmers to (presumably unskilled) assembly-line workers is total nonsense.

> However, to equate programmers to (presumably unskilled) assembly-line workers is total nonsense. Really? Is it so absurd? Some programming tasks certainly require a lot of skill and insight. Not everyone could be a senior developer on a major software project, or start a successful business making their software from scratch. On the other hand, many programming tasks today are very much like an assembly line: here…

It all comes down to the point you make about there being no widespread absolute consensus on the best way to develop software: our industry moves too fast and contradicts itself too often for institutions and standards to become permanently established. But I suspect, comparatively, we are actually doing much better than more mature fields such as law and medicine (who took hundreds of years from their founding to reach what they have achieved today).

Also, maybe law and medicine aren’t that great. Every time I visit my GP these days I’m always struck by how he basically has no idea what is wrong with me. And our legal system seems to be pretty out of date in the light of more recent findings in psychology and changes in society caused by the Internet.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#230

Post by olliesaunders »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #109
CrLf wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

> If you are a doctor, or a lawyer, or a freakin' sales guy, people will listen to your stories, at least for a while. On the other hand, if you are a programmer and even start to talk about what you do for a living, people's eyes will glaze in boredom instantly. What saddens me is that it happens inside the industry too. Too many times I have seen and talked to programmers who seem to consider themselves 'glorified…

Genuinely curious:

“I respect people who came to programming 'for the money' rather than because of being interested”

Why?

Post reply on HN