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If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

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Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#101

Post by Radim »

CrLf wrote: post #85
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

Exactly. Even in this thread, it is appalling how quickly people reach for the "but look at Google!" argument.

Guys, Google is a top paid company in a top paid part of one of the richest countries in the world! Stop throwing around 6-figure salaries (in US dollars, no less).

I can attest to the fact that in Europe, programmers have respect on the level of assembly line workers. By Europe I mean countries from UK to Belgium to Czech to Romania. It's an ok job, you get paid some money, or even good money if you're skilled and know the right people. But your parents would much prefer you picked a respectable profession, like a doctor or a lawyer.

The reason I see for this is that IT is the wild-wild-west free market at the moment. That's why it's so successful, disruptive, productive and generally awesome. And why it scares parents. But it's also filled with wide-eyed, passionate kids who were so busy fighting each other and comparing e-penises that they didn't even notice when the old hands commoditized them. Remember, revolutions eat their own children.

Still, I am very much against introducing unions and regulations to artificially limit the market. The last paragraph of the original post is spot-on. The only way to gain respect is not to cry for it, but to realize your value and hold your head high. Sadly, programmers as a community seem to have already lost that battle.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#102

Post by nivertech »

Software is just automation. You need to know problem domain to get any respect.

Traders in Hedge Funds will always get more respects than quants.

Physicists and Electronics engineers in Semi industry will always get more respect than software engineers.

Sales guys will get more respect than programmers in companies like EMC or VMWare.

Etc.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#103

Post by acangiano »

wheels wrote: post #75
throwaway37 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase. Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up. "Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential." Evidence…

But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. Actually it's not. Name calling would be if I called you an entitled whiner. There's a difference between attacking your argument and attacking you. (And if we're sticking to the taxonomy, that part of my comment would be DH2, "responding to tone".) Evidence? That was the crux of my post. Programmers do get filthy rich (usually via…

Let's be honest here. It's hard to define respect, but an overwhelming majority of parents would rather have their daughter marry a lawyer or a doctor, than a programmer. That right there gives you a strong indicator of society's take on the issue. I'm not arguing that programmers get no respect (they do pretty well among non-prestigious trades). I'm arguing that programmers are not perceived as belonging to the same professional elite that lawyers and doctors belong to.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#104

Post by atomicdog »

alexro wrote: post #70

Software is eating the world and we are part of that world, so software is eating us too! But unlike lawyers, doctors and bankers we don't have artificial barriers make the industry protected.

So what we really need is a proper professional society, or even unions.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#106

Post by mgkimsal »

CrLf wrote: post #85
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

I'd taken to calling myself a 'digital garbageman' for a time, because that's essentially what I was. I had some corp jobs, and it was mostly cleaning up other peoples' code. I said it tongue-in-cheek, but I did feel that way, and eventually left corporate work to hang out my own shingle. This time around, I'm primarily solo, and sub out work to people to augment my time/skills.

I've gotten much better about charging rates I'm comfortable with, and finding clients that a) can afford it and b) find value in what I do at those rates. It would actually be nicer to do 'value-based' pricing, vs hourly, but it's not something that both parties are usually able to agree on. Unless you know a particular industry well, it may be hard to understand the full value of the work you do. Even then, the company may much prefer to pay hourly or much lower rates, simply because they can probably find someone else to do it.

With medical and legal professions, the licensing/regulation creates a large barrier to entry, and people have to go to those professionals for certain tasks. You can represent yourself in court, for example, but it's often frowned on, but you generally can't prescribe yourself your own medication. With software, no licensing/regulation exists, so there's generally a much broader range of skills and value in the marketplace, which dilutes the value perception many people have.

Agreed on the age thing. As long as there's a youth-obsessed focus in the software world (and I think it's done just as much by us inside than by the outside world) it'll be hard to get the respect we'd like as a profession, simply because most people don't treat it as a career. Would you rather use a 22 year old lawyer, or a 52 year old lawyer? How about a 22 year old developer vs a 52 year old developer? :)

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#107

Post by wheels »

CrLf wrote: post #85
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

For the record, I don't live in the US and only spent 3 of my 10 years of full-time software development at startups (my own). The US is just a convenient and familiar frame of reference.

There always exists a context where a given person is on the low end of the totem pole. You can almost always shift the goal-posts by moving around within society to find a place where you're a relative dunce. It seems totally plausible to me that programmers aren't at the top of the food-chain in positions in non-software companies.

But if you go out into the broader world ... the world where my brother works at Walgreens and my sister is a tour guide at the zoo, where my best friend just got fired and is about to move back in with her mom, my grandfather sold tractors and my mom is an elementary school teacher ... in that world being a computer programmer is a respected trade.

I feel like you zoomed out some, but if you zoom out even further, all of the sudden being a programmer is respected again. You're right that we orientate ourselves relative to our peers and that's the lens that we see the world through, but the broader world isn't all white-collar knowledge-workers.

As a somewhat disconnected point, and this probably partially owing to the fact that most of my professional experience is in Europe, being a 30-something programmer here is totally normal. In fact, I'm 31 and most of the programmers I've worked with have been older than me. The median age seems to be more 35-ish, with a lot of people still working in normal programming positions into their 40s and 50s. The distribution here more seems to follow the pattern of there simply being a lot more people that started programming in the 90s or 2000s than in the 70s or 80s rather than a particularly strong age bias against programmers.

I've also not experienced the total lack of interest in programming. Lots of my friends -- most of who are non-technical -- ask questions about it. I suspect part of the problem may simply be that a lot of programmers aren't particularly good communicators.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#108

Post by baha_man »

Radim wrote: post #101
CrLf wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

Exactly. Even in this thread, it is appalling how quickly people reach for the "but look at Google!" argument. Guys, Google is a top paid company in a top paid part of one of the richest countries in the world! Stop throwing around 6-figure salaries (in US dollars, no less). I can attest to the fact that in Europe, programmers have respect on the level of assembly line workers. By Europe I mean countries from UK to B…

"...programmers have respect on the level of assembly line workers... [in the] UK... your parents would much prefer you picked a respectable profession, like a doctor or a lawyer."

In the UK, sure, being a lawyer or doctor is much more prestigious than being a programmer. However, to equate programmers to (presumably unskilled) assembly-line workers is total nonsense.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#109

Post by TeMPOraL »

CrLf wrote: post #85
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

> If you are a doctor, or a lawyer, or a freakin' sales guy, people will listen to your stories, at least for a while. On the other hand, if you are a programmer and even start to talk about what you do for a living, people's eyes will glaze in boredom instantly.

What saddens me is that it happens inside the industry too. Too many times I have seen and talked to programmers who seem to consider themselves 'glorified janitors'. If you mention anything science/tech/IT-related outside of 09:00-17:00 period, you'll get shunned for being a geek. I say, WTF? I respect people who came to programming 'for the money' rather than because of being interested, however I consider disrespectfully discarding science/tech/IT stories while being too happy to discuss tourism, sports and cooking as a sign of mental limitation and general lack of respect to other people.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#110

Post by roel_v »

maxaf wrote: post #98
roel_v wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that programmers largely are interchangeable. Of course, you are a special snowflake etc; but at the end, the majority of programmers do repeatable, simple work, e.g. writing line-of-business Java applications, maintenance work like adapting Cobol code to work with new tax rules, writing generic GUI's that work just well enough to justify the expense given that the app has only a few 10's or 100's of use…

> you can get a new programmer who has had a 2 year degree in programming and 6 months of training on the specific technology up to speed in such a project in a week. And this is how crap code comes to be.

Sure, but it works well enough for many organizations. Very seldom is there a business case to be made for a beautifully architected, extensible, maintainable, useable (with useability testing etc) expense tracking application. Throw something together that works well enough to produce the output required and is integrated with other systems, write a 10-page manual that explains the input formats (because sane input checking and error reporting is for pussies - just display 'data input error' when the user enters a date as dd-mm-yy instead of dd-mm-yyyy), write a 'policy' that people only can get paid expenses if they use the application and voila, you're done.

And when you need changes in 3 years time - hire a contractor on fixed fee, who cares that he will age 10 years in 10 days time; he'll move on to the next pile of crap soon anyway.

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