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Why forgiving someone else is about you

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Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#221

Post by HarryHirsch »

nicoburns wrote: post #21
willcipriano wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with all things in life it really depends on how you frame it. As a young man I encountered many people who were unkind, told me that my goals were impossible and mocked me for my ambition. Now that I have succeeded at those aims and continued to grow as a human being it is a great feeling to encounter those people in life and see that they haven't been as successful as I have. I can't help but think that I perhap…

Proving someone wrong isn't revenge. Revenge would be if you used your newfound position of power to actively hurt them in some way.

Revenge would be if you used your newfound position of power to actively hurt them in some way.

There is much irony here. If you went ahead and hurt those who hurt you, they are supposed to let go, they are supposed to take the high ground and forgive you! So go ahead, rape, steal, murder and pillage, society will be you your side.

We don't get very far if we confuse forgiveness with letting go. It's a dangerous notion that only enables and empowers bullies.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#222

Post by throwanem »

barrkel wrote: post #219
throwanem wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. Framing it in terms of opposition to a perceived political trend doesn't read that way to me, and my own relevant experience includes nothing to suggest that framing forgiveness in any way related to any kind of political anything would be a useful way of dealing with the ramifications of past emotional trauma. Perhaps the original commenter will come along and clarify.

I'm not trying to frame it as oppositional to a political trend, but rather that it's unfashionable an angle to take, to not take up the mantle of victimhood. I was commenting on the relative location of my position because I'm aware of its unfashionability as I write. If anything, I was being peremptorily defensive, not redirecting to some other external target.

That's fair, but I'm still very unclear on how the one relates to the other.

How is this idea, "to not take up the mantle of victimhood," meant to be useful in, for example, forgiving my grandfather for what he did that one afternoon when I was still a small boy, and everyone else was out on a day trip somewhere? - that one afternoon much of which I'm totally unable to remember, but still, thirty years on, makes me queasy to think about.

To be sure, what happened that afternoon is between me and my grandfather and not likely ever to be reconciled in detail, especially seeing how he died a couple of decades ago. But the facts of the situation are fairly obvious, especially since I'm not the only one in my family with a story like that. So I think it makes a pretty good worked example, or the basis for one at least.

If nothing else, I can attest that dealing with the emotional ramifications of having an afternoon like that in one's past is a long process - I've been working at it for some years now, and even that's just since I realized I needed to start trying. So what I'm asking is, what is "not [taking] up the mantle of victimhood" meant to have to do with a process like that? In what way is it meant to make that easier, or even make that possible?

I mean, this is a fair question, right? Maybe I've misunderstood somewhere, but as far as I can tell you've framed it as a general prescription, so it seems reasonable to think it should be applicable here. But I have to admit that I'm not seeing how.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#223

Post by tarkin2 »

The phrase “to forgive someone“ confuses me.

If you want to accept, no longer demand anything be said or done and move on wiser—and this is your definition of forgiveness—then I can understand that.

But forgiving someone implies you do, say or treat someone a certain way. Most of the posts imply the opposite.

I generally accept someone’s destructive past actions without demanding an apology and then move on with newfound caution and anger-dissolved-into-disappointment regarding that person, but would you say that is “forgiving someone”?

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#224

Post by johnchristopher »

dsubburam wrote: post #200
yarrel wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not only must we let those who wrong us off the hook and feel for them, if we can't it's because we aren't virtuous enough. I'm perfectly comfortable ignoring that moral claim. If people want to talk about letting go, talk about letting go . Talk of forgiveness is simply misleading.

Exactly. There is the case where the person who has given offense sincerely offers an apology, having become aware of their wrong, with an affect of proportionate contrition. The injured party might now deem to forgive them, and restore the offender's previous status in the relationship--e.g. as a friend, good neighbor, etc. Redefining "forgiveness" from this bilateral way that we have come to traditionally understan…

It's not just about restoring the previous status (actually, you rarely can't). It's sometimes about strengthening that relationship. It changes it anyway, not necessarily in a bad way.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#225

Post by watwut »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #123
watwut wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between the two options is not just subjective. There is real world difference between misunderstanding and abuse. The big issue with calling 2 unhealthy mindset is that if you are actually in 'toxic' situation, it prevents you to find solution. This is one of things that makes people stay in abusive relationships. It prevents you to set boundaries, leave or cut people that needs to be cut. "It is just…

I just don't agree with the implied dichotomy here, between good people who always treat others well (although they might have misunderstandings) and narcissists with abusive habits. Most people fall in the middle, where they're a bit of a jerk in their own idiosyncratic situations. If you get in a habit of sorting all bad behavior between "misunderstanding" and "abuse", you'll inevitably end up calling a lot of norm…

I can fully agree with that.

But that does not make abusive situation matter of victims mindset, it is still matter of acts of the one who is doing it.

And when non narcissist acts abusive or have such habits, the very same person acting differently with different people makes no difference. You still have to solve the abusive situation you are in, nit the mutual misunderstanding nor things "spiralling out of control of no one's fault".

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#226

Post by watwut »

GavinMcG wrote: post #140
watwut wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know what "victim mindset" is supposed to be. Victim is descriptor - something negative was done to you. You don't become victim by looking at things certain way. Nor you do stop being one. If you was robbed, you are robbery victim regardless of what your mindset is. Most of this is about denying that you might be victim of something either to yourself or to others. Plus, people actually really do deny that.…

There are situations where you're disempowered, taken advantage of, or abused. Some people inappropriately generalize those experiences, and instead of being (appropriately) aware of the possibility of mistreatment or risk, they expect such treatment or interpret all treatment through such a lens. There's no need to deny that you might be a victim. My ex-girlfriend cheated on me, and maybe my current one will too. Bu…

Responsibility for yourself should not mean that you will now be like "maybe cheating was my fault or maybe I remember it wrong". It was not.

Responsibility for yourself also means that some things are not your doing. You and I are not Gods moving everyone else by our actions.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#227

Post by hooande »

willcipriano wrote: post #15
hnarayanan wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe revenge helps you?

As with all things in life it really depends on how you frame it. As a young man I encountered many people who were unkind, told me that my goals were impossible and mocked me for my ambition. Now that I have succeeded at those aims and continued to grow as a human being it is a great feeling to encounter those people in life and see that they haven't been as successful as I have. I can't help but think that I perhap…

Your source of motivation is arbitrary. The point is that you had the talent and ability to achieve things, and this or that narrative inspired you to use it. fwiw, I'd imagine you also benefitted from the kindness of strangers and blind luck

If you have talent, use it to make the world better for yourself and others. What any given person thought years ago is completely irrelevant to any significant achievement you may have

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#229

Post by [deleted] »

scottious wrote: post #33
hnarayanan wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe revenge helps you?

If you take the high road while they consistently take the low road long enough, eventually you'll feel like a complete push over who lacks self-respect. I personally have reached a breaking point in which I realize that if I don't do something different, then the people who've abused me will continue abusing me while all while I take the high road and try to be the better person. I wouldn't call it revenge, because…

[deleted]

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#230

Post by touisteur »

M0T0K0 wrote: post #91
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matt…

This. So many here have not had to deal with extensive emotional trauma brought upon manipulations, oversights, ignorance, inexperience, etc. of a parent who was totally a victim too, but THIS DOES NOT NEGATE HOW DANGEROUS they can be. My own mother whom was beaten and abused by an alcoholic grandmother will tragically never be capable of seeing her own faults due to the trauma that basically arrested her development…

That must hurt just to talk about. You're lucky to be able to 'bring it out'. I can feel (sort of) what you feel, from experience.

I'm still stuck on 'someone has to pay' and 'it's not fair' although I know these are childish hopes. Pay how... They don't even remember. They don't give a shit. You can pity (they're sick, they did their best) but it gets worse. now you have no-one to blame... No enemy. Left with undirected, unfocused anger.

Oh and the anger on the other parent figures around 'I had no idea', 'I didn't know it was this bad'. WTF?

Forgiveness is hard. Grief is hard. Some of us have a very hard time letting go of those feelings. I can't do those yet. I can't let go of lots of things. I have an unforgiving memory for hurt and it prompts System 1 almost every day, to be on my guard, that something is fishy, I'm about to be hurt. False alarm 99% of the time. Can't work much on forgiveness when you're in survival mode...

I feel for you.

I hope we can both move on one day. Dog knows I'm trying. The anger is not good for your health, I'm learning now...

Be well.

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