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Why forgiving someone else is about you

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Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#121

Post by bfieidhbrjr »

scottious wrote: post #25

As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this: > Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role of victim. well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their enti…

I was in the same boat. I have a book recommendation for you:

https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Be-Disliked-Phenomenon-Happin...

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#122

Post by sngz »

OneGuy123 wrote: post #57
scottious wrote: post #25

As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this: > Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role of victim. well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their enti…

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

I'll have to disagree with that. I cut out a bunch of toxic people from my life and moved across the country and I still hate them but people like them don't come across my mind at all unless mutual acquaintances bring them up. I even came across my bully from middle school in a random city I visited, and had drinks with him and his girlfriend that he was calling a retard throughout the whole night and was clear that he was being abusive to her. Do I forgive him? no, especially since he never apologized. But I'm free from these people now too and I get Schadenfreude whenever i hear about their misfortunes in life and see it as karma.

what you are describing is not forgiveness. It's called moving on.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#123

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

watwut wrote: post #107
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many scenarios you do become a victim by looking at things a certain way. Suppose I get in a nasty fight with a close friend, where she yells at me and calls me all sorts of nasty names and shoves me a bit before running away. There are two different ways I could process that: * That conversation really spiraled out of control. We should get together, understand what went wrong, and make up. * I'm an abuse victim!…

The difference between the two options is not just subjective. There is real world difference between misunderstanding and abuse. The big issue with calling 2 unhealthy mindset is that if you are actually in 'toxic' situation, it prevents you to find solution. This is one of things that makes people stay in abusive relationships. It prevents you to set boundaries, leave or cut people that needs to be cut. "It is just…

I just don't agree with the implied dichotomy here, between good people who always treat others well (although they might have misunderstandings) and narcissists with abusive habits. Most people fall in the middle, where they're a bit of a jerk in their own idiosyncratic situations. If you get in a habit of sorting all bad behavior between "misunderstanding" and "abuse", you'll inevitably end up calling a lot of normal behavior abuse and a lot of okay people abusers.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#124

Post by joelmichael »

sngz wrote: post #122
OneGuy123 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

I'll have to disagree with that. I cut out a bunch of toxic people from my life and moved across the country and I still hate them but people like them don't come across my mind at all unless mutual acquaintances bring them up. I even came across my bully from middle school in a random city I visited, and had drinks with him and his girlfriend that he was calling a retard throughout the whole night and was clear that…

Haha, yeah, that doesn't sound bitter and hateful at all.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#125

Post by pastage »

M0T0K0 wrote: post #91
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matt…

This. So many here have not had to deal with extensive emotional trauma brought upon manipulations, oversights, ignorance, inexperience, etc. of a parent who was totally a victim too, but THIS DOES NOT NEGATE HOW DANGEROUS they can be. My own mother whom was beaten and abused by an alcoholic grandmother will tragically never be capable of seeing her own faults due to the trauma that basically arrested her development…

Even if you do not want a relationship with someone, forgiveness is a way to feel better yourself. It's not about making some one else better, it's about your quality of life.

After ten years I'm almost there, but it got better after my first step of deciding to forgive, still get panic attacks though.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#126

Post by isoskeles »

OneGuy123 wrote: post #57
scottious wrote: post #25

As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this: > Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role of victim. well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their enti…

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

It's a valid feeling to believe your parents either did know better or should have known better. And that also does not preclude forgiveness.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#127

Post by jka »

In this and many other conversations nowadays I find myself wondering how the narrative applies through the lens of three different groups:

- Those who are generally in good health (mental and physical) and who may have experienced difficulties in the past but do not dwell on them

- People who are victims and who encounter regular struggles as a result -- likely the intended audience of articles like this

- Sociopaths who at best do not understand the emotional pain of others, and at worst enjoy inflicting it

I hope the advice in the article is genuinely intended to help people in the second group.

Sometimes I fear that content is authored or perpetuated by people from the third group who would prefer to place the responsibility for repair on the victims.

And frequently I find that the audience who reads and discusses it is the first group, without really understanding the others and in particular how charming, reasonable and attractive the third group can appear.

In short and in my experience: it is probably good advice but it should not detract focus from the harm that some people willingly cause.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#128

Post by Osiris »

My therapist has recently recommend "The Grief Recovery Handbook"[1] to me to deal with a breech of trust in my life. I never thought of that as "grief" but as we went through it, it's really put a new perspective on things.

The book also talks about the importance of forgiveness and explains it this way:

"Since you cannot go back in time to change the past, forgiveness is about giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday. It relates to forgiving actions that were taken, that gave you the feelings of loss of control over your happiness. It’s about acknowledging those things that another did or said that caused pain and making the decision that you are not going to let that hurt or control you anymore.

Forgiveness can be very empowering. It can give you the chance to be free of another person’s emotional control. It has nothing to do with the other person. As was said before, it is something that is for you and you alone."

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Grief-Recovery-Handbook-Anniversary-E...

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#129

Post by basch »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81
OneGuy123 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did). Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life. But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issue…

But you're not free until you deal with the PTSD, and a trite "I forgive you" is absolutely no help with this. Nor is pretending to everyone - including yourself - that you're just fine with the past when you really aren't. Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it" which is completely inappropriate and can be actively harmful. Good therapists and good therapy can help a lot. The modality doesn't matt…

>a trite "I forgive you"

A trite "I forgive you" isnt forgiveness. Forgiveness is a virtue, which means not everybody has it, or can do it. Forgiveness is not "forgiving" someone that didn't actually wrong you. Forgiveness is not pretending to let go but holding on. Forgiveness is not telling the other person they are forgiven, so the weight is off their shoulders. Forgiveness IS "dealing with the PTSD", letting go, and if the issue is caused by someone else, feeling pity on or happiness for them.

>Worse, it implies a social pressure to "just deal with it"

Letting go, and bottling up are two opposites. The latter is not forgiveness.

Wikipedia:

>Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, and overcomes negative emotions such as resentment and vengeance.

>But cliches about forgiveness

Misunderstandings of cliches make it seem as if the act is something anybody can do at any time, and not a skill people learn or build through practice. Forgiveness is both the knowledge that "letting this bother me will cause me more hurt in the long run, I need to find a way to overcome it, to prevent myself from causing me more damage" and the ability to execute on that knowledge.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#130

Post by jakear »

hawk_ wrote: post #2

While law doesn't have place for revenge in a civilised society and rightly so, the need for revenge/retribution I suspect is quite innate. It's healthy to try to forgive but it's quite difficult, almost like you can't fool yourselves into thinking you aren't hungry.

> you can't fool yourselves into thinking you aren't hungry

Interesting take. Friends of mine who grew up in poverty would tend to disagree - from what I’ve heard it becomes very natural to ignore hunger to the point of it going away entirely. This is more or less the only way to have a semi-pleasant life, given you won’t be at a healthy nutrition level regardless.

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