Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#221

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

wallace_f wrote: post #141

Apocryphon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, it seems highly dubious that opening up to economic migration means the same set of policies used everywhere, and the same results everywhere.

I know you keep wanting to broadcast that opinion, but it is obviously not clear to be true. For reasons you can see in my comment, and also see this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19988198

So either Japanese culture is "extraordinarily unique" and has a strong sense of identity, allowing its people to pursue immigration policies with different results from other nations, or its culture is already no better or worse or different than those aforementioned nations- and immigration will lead to the same conclusions. So which is it?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#222

Post by sridca » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

mter wrote: post #208

sridca wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many Japanese will always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders. Isn't this true of other nations?

Japan is extra special in this regard. My brother who is japanese, married a japanese national, speaks japanese and lives in japan is not "Japanese". That's what the article is referring to.

Could you elaborate on what specifically makes him "not Japanese"?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#223

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #167

Apocryphon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like Japan, with its own unique culture and governance distinct from Western nations, is not pursuing a course of mass migration but something more regulated and careful.

They were, for a while. Isn't the point of this article that they're moving to a much more Western-style policy? Japan was a unique culture, but already feels a lot less so than it used to be.

Perhaps it will be a more open migration policy with Japanese characteristics.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#224

Post by sridca » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

c0vfefe wrote: post #172

anthuman wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American is a nationality, it is not an ethnicity. There is no "ethnic american" due to historic reason. You are half-korean, so what is your other half? White? So you are half korean and half white. You wouldn't say you are 100% korean and 100% white. That would be ridiculous right? Your ethnic history and composition can't add up to 200%. Even if you claimed to be 100% korean or 100% white, neither white nor korean…

> There is nationality and ethnicity. Those are two different things. Thank you! This whole top-level comment thread is just conflating the two.

Yup, there are 4 combinations in total. For example, a white American will see:

1. Someone of different nationality (eg: a white Australian)

2. Someone of different ethnicity (eg: a Black American)

3. Someone of both different nationality and ethnicity (eg: a fresh off the boat immigrant from India)

4. Someone of same nationality and ethnicity (i.e., fellow white Americans).

Now one may, in principle at least, accept that all these categories of people should be treated with impartiality and respect in every sphere of life ... however can they also sincerely report not feeling these identities as separate? I think this is what anthuman is getting at.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#225

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

llamathrowaway wrote: post #209

It’s funny to see the comments lamenting the projected destruction of Japanese culture, while in fact - the Japanese language is littered with loan words written in katakana even though native words of the same meaning often exist already - office workers all wear suits - the music scene is not very different from the west. Rock is huge and there is a great jazz scene. While bands playing Japanese instruments are rar…

> They have being open to foreign cultural influences since Meiji era, and I don’t see that changing.

Their legislature is called the Diet, after German practice, for crying out loud.

It's good that you brought up the Meiji Restoration, as the very fact that Japan became a world power, whose cultural projection is now global, was because they carefully adopted foreign practices and brought in foreign advisors as necessary for their society to flourish.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#226

Post by sridca » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

magpi3 wrote: post #187

anthuman wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American is a nationality, it is not an ethnicity. There is no "ethnic american" due to historic reason. You are half-korean, so what is your other half? White? So you are half korean and half white. You wouldn't say you are 100% korean and 100% white. That would be ridiculous right? Your ethnic history and composition can't add up to 200%. Even if you claimed to be 100% korean or 100% white, neither white nor korean…

The conflation that is happening in this thread is between culture and ethnicity not nationality and ethnicity. When someone of mixed race says they are "all Japanese" they are obviously talking about their culture and not their passport.

Culture is tied to nationality. Do you have an example indicating the contrary?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#227

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #197

duxup wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep saying "multiculturalism" but I'm not sure what you mean. You talk about tribalism and war, that's a choice someone makes, and that's on those who choose it.

> that's a choice someone makes If you have a vastly non-tribalistic society (.e.g. western society) and introduce masses of highly tribalistic immigrants then the host society has no choice but to either become tribalistic itself or die. There is no choice. The survivor will always be the strongest, most ruthless, brutal and tribalisitc tribe. We had a great technology that shielded us from that kind of tribal confl…

Yes, because the Sicilians who left during the struggles of Italian unification, the Irish who left during the wars of independence against the British, and the Germans and other Europeans who left during the revolutions of 1848 to enter the Americas were not tribal at all.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#228

Post by whytaka » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

slang800 wrote: post #35

whytaka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does that matter to you? I don't know if I'll have children and if I do, it'll certainly be It's often said that people used to have a lot of kids in order to insure against child mortality. I understand financial stress et al may be one reason for the lower reproduction rate but less kids can also be a sign of success.

If successful people are having fewer kids than unsuccessful people then haven't we created a dysgenic system?

Not if we improve the opportunities of unsuccessful people.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#229

Post by mistermann » Thu, May 23, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #215

mistermann wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just realized the original person that made the comment wasn't the one that replied, my bad. But I agree, this is indeed what happened. Another similarly true explanation is, he used his imagination . It's interesting to me how judging people based on heuristics is sometimes fine, even admirable, but other times it is Very Very Bad. It's also funny how these types of ideas seem to offend people, judging by voting a…

Doesn’t seem to be much judgment going on in that comment towards people. Maybe judgment towards a preexisting narrative or meme. People need to take things less personally in arguments, and feel less offended when the ideas they’re repeating are challenged.

> Doesn’t seem to be much judgment going on in that comment towards people.

Are we perhaps referring to different comments? I was referring to: "This view is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right guise!!" but in real life it smacks of eugenics and the Divine Right Of The Rich."

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#230

Post by Nadya » Thu, May 23, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #217

Nadya wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've seen the same results in every country that has attempted it, so why would one more country be any different? How many repeating occurrences of something occurring do you need before you can look at the data and go "There's a strong correlation there." without being called or implied to be a racist?

Because if cultures are real, then it stands to reason that an immigration policy set by Japanese people would be different from one set by Western Europeans.

There are only so many ways to make cheese and most of the process is going to remain the same. Being a different or unique culture doesn't fundamentally change how cheese is manufactured.

I fail to see your point. There are only so many ways to do set immigration policy and currently Japanese policy is different from ones used by Western countries. Much to the chagrin of the Western countries criticizing it as their own policies are breaking down and giving rise to nationalism and increasing social and racial tensions.