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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#221

Post by hectorlorenzo »

ueushzvzis wrote: post #207
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

It's interesting how you do the same thing you get mad about other people doing. You say that less guns equals less gun deaths... well duh. Then you go on to say less handguns equals less deaths and this actually isn't true. As it stands, in the developed world more guns does not equate to more violence or more deaths. Obviously there are more deaths due to guns because people have access to them but the argument tha…

> As it stands, in the developed world more guns does not equate to more violence or more deaths.

Sources? Do you mean "more guns" or "easier access to guns"?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#222

Post by hectorlorenzo »

ueushzvzis wrote: post #210
alkonaut wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This does not follow. If the ban didn't actually lessen the number of handguns, then we don't have the left hand side of the implication! These are two things: ban on handguns -> less handguns less handguns -> fewer deaths Someone argued that the second is true, and you seem to refute it by saying the first isn't. So maybe you aren't talking about the same thing. I'm going to argue that the second thing isn't contr…

Fewer guns does not equal fewer deaths in the developed world. You are doing exactly what you claim to be against. Cherry picking data to suit your narrative.

It's the second time you mention this without providing any source. Can you please elaborate?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#223

Post by Banthum »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #191
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

My 2 cent (classical armchair analysis): It seems to me that some of these discussions are mostly dominated by irrationality. This is particularly recognizable in the US, but also occurs in Europe to a degree that varies from topic to topic and country to country. I believe there are two major factors at play. First, certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong an…

>most problems could be solved by experts

Implicit here is that when you say "experts", you mean people who share your terminal values and general way of thinking.

Your post makes it seem like you're having trouble stepping out of your value system to consider opposing views. Consider your quote here:

"certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong anything concerning human sexuality and some religious views."

Apparently to you it's unthinkable that secular (e.g. leftist) viewpoints could also nurture irrational, destructive taboos and blind spots. But they absolutely do. Some of them are on display in your post.

You say, "most problems could be solved by experts". This is basically stating, "If I had absolute power all this could be solved easily." It's one of the impulses that leads to tyranny. This sort of thing has been tried; the world has seen many leftist technocracies, and it's been one of the most murderous political forces in human history. It's not a good line of thought.

The reality is that the solutions you imagine wouldn't actually work the way you imagine they would. Because your values aren't ultimately the best ones in any absolute sense. They're just yours, and like all humans, they're blinding you to critical aspects of the situation. This is why successful societies become successful not by concentrating power, but by spreading it. When power is spread, many values and perspectives are brought to bear, and we muddle through.

The technocratic, power concentrating, "If only I was king!" tyranny impulse needs to be rejected at every turn.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have any power; your values are valid and valuable. But you should continue to share that power.

Technocracy is tyranny is murder.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#224

Post by madaxe_again »

ueushzvzis wrote: post #207
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

It's interesting how you do the same thing you get mad about other people doing. You say that less guns equals less gun deaths... well duh. Then you go on to say less handguns equals less deaths and this actually isn't true. As it stands, in the developed world more guns does not equate to more violence or more deaths. Obviously there are more deaths due to guns because people have access to them but the argument tha…

Got any statistics to back that up? I mean, it’s anecdotal, but how many school shootings have there been in the USA vs any non gun owning nation? Last one in the UK was Dunblane - and then they banned guns.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#225

Post by otherme1 »

taneq wrote: post #204
herbst wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take also Switzerland nearly as much guns but barely gun deaths.

IIRC (1) Those guns are all bulky rifle-style things which are great when you're defending against an invading army but not so useful when you want to shoot some of your classmates, and (2) There are lots of guns around but access to ammunition is tightly controlled.

You have an article in the wikipedia that informs you that (1) is false, they can buy semi-auto freely. And (2) is also false, they can buy ammo if they legally own a weapon.

The difference is in the quality of the society.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#226

Post by thriftwy »

yznovyak wrote: post #151
Marazan wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then there's the issue that Singapore's approach doesn't actually stop drug abuse in Singapore.

Care to provide any source for your claim? Here's mine: http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/drug-use/b... Singapore has 0.18 drug related deaths per 100k population. With a population of ~5.6 million people this means 10 deaths per year for whole country. In comparison Portugal has 3x higher drug related death rate. Regarding executions you can check wikipedia: > However, since the 2010s, execution has…

Wow, this chart is awesome!

It displays that, the worse life is climate-wise, the more drug abuse there is.

Especially pronounced in Europe. As you go more inland and more to the north, drug deaths increase.

Is it a coincidence? Don't think so.

This way, Singapore was never in any danger, it's warm and coastal. And not in sub-Sakhara. Neither was Portugal, come to think of it! Thus it's a stretch to promote their solutions worldwide.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#227

Post by Banthum »

rusk wrote: post #189
Tyco wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US legalizes gay marriage and now they have Trump. Rebuttal?

I think there may be something to this. Though perhaps a better term than "rebuttal" is "backlash". The conservative backlash has long been mooted by social commentators. It's likely a large cohort of Trumps voters were those who were incensed by "central government interfering in local affairs", in particular the case of Kim Davis springs to mind. Never mind that Trump doesn't exactly embody conservatism, I'd imagin…

"I like to think that the current wave of high-profile sexual impropriety cases is similarly a sparked by the more socially liberal sectors of society against the misogyny embodied by Trump and the socially conservative segments."

What? Pretty much every harasser and rapist revealed recently has been a moderate-to-active liberal. Weinstein himself gave generously to Hillary.

How do you spin this as righteous leftists getting rid of those bad conservatives when all the perps are full-throated leftist donors, activists, and supporters? I'm sorry but this strikes me as just surreal.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#228

Post by rusk »

Banthum wrote: post #227
rusk wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there may be something to this. Though perhaps a better term than "rebuttal" is "backlash". The conservative backlash has long been mooted by social commentators. It's likely a large cohort of Trumps voters were those who were incensed by "central government interfering in local affairs", in particular the case of Kim Davis springs to mind. Never mind that Trump doesn't exactly embody conservatism, I'd imagin…

"I like to think that the current wave of high-profile sexual impropriety cases is similarly a sparked by the more socially liberal sectors of society against the misogyny embodied by Trump and the socially conservative segments." What? Pretty much every harasser and rapist revealed recently has been a moderate-to-active liberal. Weinstein himself gave generously to Hillary. How do you spin this as righteous leftists…

Yeah that's the beauty of it. It's the left getting their house in order before they go for the right.

Also, I never said "left" and "right", or anything to do with political allegiances. These topics transcend political identity.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#229

Post by coldtea »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

>This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere.

That's called being a sovereign state. Else we'll just all adopt some universal law (of course everybody imagines this law to be one they like. Would you be OK if it was based on Swedish or Saudi Arabian or Guatemalan law?)

Just because "it's done elsewhere" doesn't mean you should do it to, or that it's compatible with your preferences and standards and so on, or with how you want life to be.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#230

Post by flipp3r »

ueushzvzis wrote: post #207
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

It's interesting how you do the same thing you get mad about other people doing. You say that less guns equals less gun deaths... well duh. Then you go on to say less handguns equals less deaths and this actually isn't true. As it stands, in the developed world more guns does not equate to more violence or more deaths. Obviously there are more deaths due to guns because people have access to them but the argument tha…

According to Wikipedia's "Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year" America is at 10.54, compared to countries like Finland and Switzerland which are at 3.5-ish, it is very high. You can however see America's cause of the gun problem clearly, but you're not allowed to say it out loud; https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Reeves-... You could call it "culture" which the other countries do not have.
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