A lot of the discussion in this thread talks about "the government" like it's some vast, coordinated entity. It really, really isn't. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who put a tarp over that Snowden bust didn't even know who Snowden was, they just knew someone snuck into their park overnight and put this thing there.
Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
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Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
By otherwise trusted I simply mean that it is included by default, not that you specifically trust the source. Is the the park's reaction much different from using a disassembler? They cover it up so until someone can come to inspect it and then remove it. You can't just look at it and say "yep, that's a perfectly normal bronze sculpture alright" without inspecting it (requiring removal).
The hiding is totally unrelated to removal, which is totally unrelated to realizing that it's a statue . So yes very different. And if they wanted to set up something dangerous, it would be easier to make it hidden. There's no good reason to suspect the statue is dangerous.
No, it's the universal sign for "this is the thing that needs to be removed". Unfortunately they don't have cones which read "unauthorized object subject to removal immediately" which would get the point across while preserving people's ability to see it until it was removed or properly evaluated. That would make the whole issue of removal look even more Orwellian though, would it not?
The reason why I brought up the potential danger of the statue is not because I or anyone expects it to be dangerous. (For a relevant incident though, remember the Boston Aqua Teen Hunger Force stuff... that got a terrible reaction, even though anyone who has ever played with electronics could tell that they were harmless. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Boston_bomb_scare ) I bring it up because it is both department policy and perfectly valid from the perspective of anyone who works to ensure safety in parks. If some circumstance, however crazy, causes someone to become injured by the installation then it's going to be a much bigger headache to Parks and Rec than a bunch of us calling them fascists/communists/whatever else is going on in here.
Edit: In case I wasn't clear, the point of my analogy is that... as far as you know it's just an image on the boot screen. As far as you know, it's just a sculpture that's properly installed and isn't going to just roll off as soon as some kids try to climb it (park employees try to stop this too, but it's still common esp. at this park). If it was an official installation, presumably Parks and Rec would have enough confidence in the work itself to say "this is fine" and then take responsibility for it in the future. Perhaps a better analogy would've been if someone pulled a similar stunt on NYPL's public computers or something, shrug. (I have no righteous love for my own analogy here, I just thought it would make the issue a little more clear. I seem to have been wrong about that.)
Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#213It's interesting to see that these people (1) installed the bust in such a way that it can be easily removed without damaging the existing structure and (2) went to great lengths to ensure that the new design is honoring the aesthetics that were already in place. One can argue otherwise, but I think this is a very creative and considerate form of protest which btw is also non-violent.
Snowden's a hero and deserves his place on that memorial. This whole deal with the people putting up a statue of a hero and the government tearing it down? Not what America's supposed to be about. Combine that with the fact that most of the senators who voted for the Patriot Act probably read 1984, and didn't object to the obvious propaganda in the name Patriot Act? Not what America's supposed to be about either.
If you think that Snowden is a hero, start a petition to put up a statue of him in Fort Greene Park. The Prison Ship Martyrs Monument wasn't just put there by some guy on a whim. It was a decision made by government at all levels as the result of a process that is public and open to all citizens.
Is Snowden a hero? Maybe, I dunno. Ask your fellow citizens if they want to put a statue of him in the park. That's how democracy is supposed to work. It isn't perfect, in fact it's the worst form of a government. Except for all the others.
Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
There isn't really a legitimate debate, there's the PR department of statism and fearfulness and then the reality-seeking people who decry government power-grabbing and anti-liberalism. Dragnet surveillance is totalitarianism. I guess there are apologists for totalitarianism, but why, if we are a democracy, do we listen to those who actively advocate for tyranny? EDIT: Haven't heard any objection to my points yet, pr…
Comments like this reinforce my point. You are basically framing this entire debate as good versus evil. That is not going to change anyone's minds and it serves no real purpose outside of rallying your own side. There is a middle ground between our government can read everything and our government can read nothing. I don't know where that line is, but the only way we find that line is through open debate. Except no…
Not sure it's that simple. It's a given that everyone wants to be reasonable of course, but 1984 was framed precisely as a kind of political horror story. Should we really react in terms of compromise and middle ground if somebody proposes that we live in such a horror story?
My view is that this kind of thing is a part of what intelligence services are supposed to prevent, not implement, and they are therefore seriously failing to do their taxpayer-funded jobs. Not really sure of the point of employing smart people to protect you if they then use all of their wiles to weaken individual and state security.
Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vastly different. In this situation, it's very clear what you need to do to remove the addition to the sculpture park. In your example, the presence shows that the integrity of your system has been compromised. If this sculpture showed up inside of a high security museum display case, then your analogy would make sense.
Well as someone who lives right nearby, visits the park from time to time, knows people who work in the park... the integrity of their system has been compromised . Sure, the threat may be considered pretty mundane (by non-sculptors at least; anyone who has watched art students attempt large sculptural installations may get a twitch) but I think that you are massively underestimating the expectation of infrastructura…
The integrity of the park against carrying junk into it is basically zero. Not an issue.
Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wasn't attacking a position, it can't be a strawman. It was an analogy and an explanation of my position.
That's true, you incurred in a false equivalence fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
I never said they were exactly the same, which is what false equivalence deals with. I compared the two situations, both of which involve classified information, leaks, and loss of asset information.
Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Snowden's a hero and deserves his place on that memorial. This whole deal with the people putting up a statue of a hero and the government tearing it down? Not what America's supposed to be about. Combine that with the fact that most of the senators who voted for the Patriot Act probably read 1984, and didn't object to the obvious propaganda in the name Patriot Act? Not what America's supposed to be about either.
If you think that Snowden is a hero, start a petition to put up a statue of him in Fort Greene Park. The Prison Ship Martyrs Monument wasn't just put there by some guy on a whim. It was a decision made by government at all levels as the result of a process that is public and open to all citizens. Is Snowden a hero? Maybe, I dunno. Ask your fellow citizens if they want to put a statue of him in the park. That's how de…
> It was a decision made government at all levels as the result of a process that is public and open to all citizens.
My family member went through this process to set up a memorial statue and it was a nightmare of bureaucracy. And this was in a tiny relatively unpopular park in a small town - not a big city.
It took about 3 years to finally happen (by that I mean approved to happen, its still not completed yet) after jumping through countless hoops and making friends with the right politicians, who then had to back the idea in order to get support by the town council.
The big reason it ended up happening was the person who she became friends with ended up becoming mayor of the town.
Yay democracy.
Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#218Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well as someone who lives right nearby, visits the park from time to time, knows people who work in the park... the integrity of their system has been compromised . Sure, the threat may be considered pretty mundane (by non-sculptors at least; anyone who has watched art students attempt large sculptural installations may get a twitch) but I think that you are massively underestimating the expectation of infrastructura…
The integrity of the park against carrying junk into it is basically zero. Not an issue.
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean– litter? Or "junk" as in something hidden in the statue (far more conspiratorial than I intended this whole discussion to go)?
Edit: I think I know what you mean based on your other reply to me; I'll respond there unless you want to clarify anyway.
Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
Snowden is a traitor who happened to bring up an important debate. Probably sold US secrets to China and Russia, while releasing public information so that he can have public support while doing so. He's one of the most successful double-agents in history, with excellent public relations. If a double-agent were to happen again in the future, they'll do what they can to study how Snowden handled his case. No, I don't…
>Here come the down votes. Come on people, lets see your stuff. Truth hurts, doesn't it? Anyone wanna take me on? Oh stop whining. You can't just accuse someone of being a spy and expect upvotes. Accusations without evidence (hint hint) are not 'truth'. >how you expect police to actually deal with modern criminals (ie: Swatters) Well for most crimes the police have traditionally gotten along fine without such vast me…
> Oh stop whining. You can't just accuse someone of being a spy and expect upvotes. Accusations without evidence (hint hint) are not 'truth'.
Snowden is the first guy I'm aware of who fled to China (and later, to Russia) to protect his own free speech. Color me a little bit suspicious of him.
> Well for most crimes the police have traditionally gotten along fine without such vast metadata. For that crime specifically maybe they could use a warrant to the phone company? That seems easy to do without NSA interception. Or the police could keep track of calls to them and not have to do anything more than find the owner of a phone number.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1861
> (A) a judge of the court established by section 1803 (a) of this title; or
The law we're discussing requires a judge to sign off on it. Its not necessarily a "warrant" per se, but do you think elevating these powers to require a warrant would suffice?
These are the kinds of questions we need to be asking ourselves if we actually want to progress.