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Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

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Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#141

Post by slg »

cryoshon wrote: post #138
slg wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are looking at the situation from our little tech bubble. Regardless of all of our opinions on the situation, it is still very political. This guy is actively wanted by our government for possible treason charges. If you believe those charges have merit, then erecting a statue in his honor could easily be classified as offensive. This is part of the problem with our side of the debate. We take it as a for…

There isn't really a legitimate debate, there's the PR department of statism and fearfulness and then the reality-seeking people who decry government power-grabbing and anti-liberalism. Dragnet surveillance is totalitarianism. I guess there are apologists for totalitarianism, but why, if we are a democracy, do we listen to those who actively advocate for tyranny? EDIT: Haven't heard any objection to my points yet, pr…

Comments like this reinforce my point. You are basically framing this entire debate as good versus evil. That is not going to change anyone's minds and it serves no real purpose outside of rallying your own side. There is a middle ground between our government can read everything and our government can read nothing. I don't know where that line is, but the only way we find that line is through open debate. Except no side apparently seems willing to engage in that debate.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#142

Post by cryoshon »

rhino369 wrote: post #66
ceejayoz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. He ran away to avoid the extrajudicial punishment Chelsea Manning experienced - years of pre-trial solitary confinement with such privileges as clothing being arbitrarily revoked. You can't say that the information he divulged was both known and sensitive without being pretty laughable, by the way.

>He disclosed evidence of wrongdoing and illegal activity by the NSA, making him a whistleblower. The only illegal things he disclosed was that some NSA agents/employees illegally used their tools to track ex-gfs and stuff. All the rest is completely legal. The country had a public debating about warrantless wiretaps and congress wrote laws about it. The NSA follows those laws. He released the information because he…

If the state wants it to be so, it will be legal. The holocaust was legal. Segregation was legal. Stop mentioning legality of the NSA spying; the government writes the laws for their own benefit, of course what they do is legal.

Legality of government actions is utterly, brutally, critically, inhospitably irrelevant when compared to what is ethical. A dragnet isn't ethical. A police state isn't ethical.

Furthermore, there wasn't ever a public debate over whether people wanted the dragnet or not-- it was done in secret, then exposed, then legalized after it was exposed to the public, regardless of any public comment for or against it.

As far as "political problems" go, I'd say we all should have major political problems with the government of the US, which hasn't thought twice about breaking all of its own "rules" about the privacy, civil, or human rights of citizens.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#143

Post by unprepare »

teammatters wrote: post #20

Why is Edward Snowden a hero? He divulged sensitive U.S. documents and information that now bad actors use to exploit/harm the US. Further, he knew what he was doing was against the law and ran as far away as he could to avoid facing the consequences(Bradley, now Chelsea Manning as far as I know didnt run like a coward). Now he's a pawn between Russia and US relations. The information he divulged that we are being wa…

I see why its called a 50 cent army, the quality of this comment is laughable; an outright contradiction a sentence apart?

>divulged sensitive U.S. documents and information that now bad actors use to exploit/harm the US

But somehow also

>The information he divulged ... was nothing knew. It was information publicly known back in 2006.

How can it be both sensitive enough to endanger the US, yet completely common knowledge since 2006?

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#144

Post by pharke »

sigzero wrote: post #126
pharke wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They took due care to choose materials that would not harm the monument. Public monuments and property are there for the enjoyment and use of the public, if that usage does no harm it should be allowed. The placing of this bust pushes the limits of this usage but should still be considered fair use and free speech since the artists did no harm. Even though it will cost whatever the wages and rates for the equipment n…

There is NO WAY this is "fair use and free speech". You can't even make that argument with a straight face.

To me, this is akin to chaining yourself to a tree in a public park to protest its removal or to a fixture in a courthouse or city hall or placing posters or drawing with chalk in such locations. This statue is about as permanent a fixture or modification as that would be. https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-your-rights-demonstrat...

It has been argued before http://www.nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawRe...

If there's a case to be made protecting graffiti on private property I would say there is a case for protecting graffiti on public property if it is the public's will to do so http://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...

EDIT: o_o

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#145

Post by Loughla »

cryoshon wrote: post #138
slg wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are looking at the situation from our little tech bubble. Regardless of all of our opinions on the situation, it is still very political. This guy is actively wanted by our government for possible treason charges. If you believe those charges have merit, then erecting a statue in his honor could easily be classified as offensive. This is part of the problem with our side of the debate. We take it as a for…

There isn't really a legitimate debate, there's the PR department of statism and fearfulness and then the reality-seeking people who decry government power-grabbing and anti-liberalism. Dragnet surveillance is totalitarianism. I guess there are apologists for totalitarianism, but why, if we are a democracy, do we listen to those who actively advocate for tyranny? EDIT: Haven't heard any objection to my points yet, pr…

That's still inside the tech bubble.

Talk to Old Lady A or middle-aged man B in any number of flyover states; the average American.

They have no concept of what type of data is available about them online. They have no worries about being watched by any agency, because they literally do not understand what is being watched.

Many, many people over the age of 40(ish) make assumptions about what is possible and what is not based solely on past experience. When it was nearly impossible to gather data, house data, and retrieve data about a monstrously large group, no one bothered. Therefore, average Americans from that time period have no idea what is possible.

Like the OP said - take the time to educate folks about what is possible and why they should worry, instead of argue for right versus wrong. All that does is make people pick sides, however irrational the side is.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#147

Post by GeechieCloud »

slg wrote: post #116
hristov wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. If it is something unauthorized they probably would have removed it in due time. I.e., they would have taken a couple of days to hire professionals to do it. Now they immediately cover it up so that no-one can see it while they arrange for its removal. Why? Obviously they do not want anyone to look at it before it is removed. But why not? It is certainly not offensive in any way. It may prove to be…

I think you are looking at the situation from our little tech bubble. Regardless of all of our opinions on the situation, it is still very political. This guy is actively wanted by our government for possible treason charges. If you believe those charges have merit, then erecting a statue in his honor could easily be classified as offensive. This is part of the problem with our side of the debate. We take it as a for…

I agree with you. Comparing it to common graffiti is as much an exaggeration as comparing it to graffiti depicting genocide.

Some skaterz 'tag' is going to take weeks or months to be covered/removed. However, if instead they it was a picture likely to draw both political and media attention plus cause some individuals distress at a memorial they are going to move quickly.

The fact is in this case it was inflammatory toward the US government so we are quick to declare democracy and freedom of speech is ending. I don't think the parks department who franticly called a worker to get there and cover it up is part of this broader conspiracy to deprive americans of freedom of expression. They moved quickly on something they knew would get a lot of attention.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#148

Post by cryoshon »

rosser wrote: post #104
hristov wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. If it is something unauthorized they probably would have removed it in due time. I.e., they would have taken a couple of days to hire professionals to do it. Now they immediately cover it up so that no-one can see it while they arrange for its removal. Why? Obviously they do not want anyone to look at it before it is removed. But why not? It is certainly not offensive in any way. It may prove to be…

> It really does remind one of soviet style suppression. If by "one" you mean "you", maybe. No-one is getting gulag-ed or shot for doing this. To liken this response to Soviet-era human rights abuses betrays a pretty myopic view, IMO.

Hey man, we have Gitmo and all of our black sites around the world. Human rights abuses happen there with 100% certainty and 0% transparency.

Oh yeah, and we have the world's largest prison population by far.

So maybe not a real Soviet style gulag, just a bunch of smaller gulag-like places to store our undesirables.

Sure, it's not as bad as the USSR, but why is this sort of thing permitted whatsoever in a democracy again?

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#149

Post by [deleted] »

shkkmo wrote: post #122
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all NSA operations occur within server farms, cubicles, and offices. They have agents, they have listening posts, they have people with assets in dangerous countries. I have no idea if that information was in Snowden's massive data dump, but that's the point; no one does. He dumped a shitload of data and it's doubtful if even he knows everything that's in there.

He claims to be familiar with the contents of every document, even if he hasn't read them all. >> would it be "too far" to release the entire list of CIA field agents and their covers around the world to two journalists at a foreign newspaper because of that one group of agents? It absolutely would be and would potentially put shitloads of lives at risk. Snowden basically did the same thing with the NSA information.…

[deleted]

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#150

Post by [deleted] »

shkkmo wrote: post #122
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all NSA operations occur within server farms, cubicles, and offices. They have agents, they have listening posts, they have people with assets in dangerous countries. I have no idea if that information was in Snowden's massive data dump, but that's the point; no one does. He dumped a shitload of data and it's doubtful if even he knows everything that's in there.

He claims to be familiar with the contents of every document, even if he hasn't read them all. >> would it be "too far" to release the entire list of CIA field agents and their covers around the world to two journalists at a foreign newspaper because of that one group of agents? It absolutely would be and would potentially put shitloads of lives at risk. Snowden basically did the same thing with the NSA information.…

[deleted]
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