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The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

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Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#211

Post by otoburb »

NichoPaolucci wrote: post #200
Frost1x wrote: post #32

I work at an intersection of tech, applied research, and science. Something I’ve noticed in collaboration that does occur is an increased confidence in people outside their domains to say things with conviction. I have people who have limited experience with software pushing out layers and layers of abstracted code that’s fairly sophisticated but often misguided in intent who will say what they’re doing is correct, w…

Wow, oddly similar thing happened to me. Anecdotally, I was working with a non-developer. She was building a reporting dashboard with Claude. I pointed out that the system she built was using the filesystem to store one line notes about the report, and I said "I would probably tell the agent to use a database for that, but it's not the end of the world if it works". And she replied "Claude said the developer's right,…

>>I'm not against fact checking, but it absolutely felt like a punch in the gut coming from a non-dev. There was no "trust" there. She couldn't rely on my expertise, she had to go back to her "source of truth" (Claude) and asked for a second opinion on something that she wouldn't be able to verify.

This is probably how physicians feel when informed patients (whether using LLMs or not) ask questions (good or bad) during their patient encounters.

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#212

Post by ralfd »

wazoox wrote: post #11

I'm pretty baffled by people I hear here and there saying that AI is great because it saves them the hassle of human interaction. "I love Waymo, I don't have to chit-chat with the driver and bear his horrible music". Apparently people didn't get the memo : humans are social animals. Autonomous individuals simply don't exist. Nothing is entirely yours... And AI precisely builds upon that large availability of our comm…

> humans are social animals.

True, but the driver is a stranger to me.

Herd animals like cattle/horses, are highly suspicious of, and stressed by, strangers. And imagine how uneasy two chimps could react when meeting for the first time.

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#213

Post by fidotron »

chunky1994 wrote: post #208
fidotron wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt that someone smart (as you put it) would deliberately want things redone because they don't understand it You're actually doing the problem behavior right here: denying the validity of the experience of seeing exactly this happen, not as a one off, but repeatedly in completely separate situations and institutions. > that's a trait borne of arrogance not intelligence. I mean the problem is they're arrogant.…

My point is that wanting things redone because you don’t understand it is dumb behaviour, not smart behaviour. There wasn’t even a denial of the validity of experience, I was just trying to examine the problem - if this behaviour is something you see often exhibited by “smart” people then: either you are unable to convince them of your side of the argument for different reasons, or you are not actually arguing with s…

> My point is that wanting things redone because you don’t understand it is dumb behaviour, not smart behaviour.

Smart people can do very non smart things when they feel their status as smartest-person-in-the-room is threatened, which is the entire point.

> There wasn’t even a denial of the validity of experience, I was just trying to examine the problem - if this behaviour is something you see often exhibited by “smart” people then: either you are unable to convince them of your side of the argument for different reasons, or you are not actually arguing with smart people. Do you see the distinction?

Now you're gaslighting, bluntly.

> Intelligence and arrogance are somewhat contra-indicative.

I've never seen any evidence of this, but a _lot_ that many physics (and pure mathematics) grads are enormously more arrogant than the general population, enough that the trend under discussion has actual basis.

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#214

Post by tempacct2cmmnt »

otoburb wrote: post #211
NichoPaolucci wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, oddly similar thing happened to me. Anecdotally, I was working with a non-developer. She was building a reporting dashboard with Claude. I pointed out that the system she built was using the filesystem to store one line notes about the report, and I said "I would probably tell the agent to use a database for that, but it's not the end of the world if it works". And she replied "Claude said the developer's right,…

>> I'm not against fact checking, but it absolutely felt like a punch in the gut coming from a non-dev. There was no "trust" there. She couldn't rely on my expertise, she had to go back to her "source of truth" (Claude) and asked for a second opinion on something that she wouldn't be able to verify. This is probably how physicians feel when informed patients (whether using LLMs or not) ask questions (good or bad) dur…

Doctor:

I don’t mind the questions. I mind the assertions of fact.

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#215

Post by dalmo3 »

pastel8739 wrote: post #179
Frost1x wrote: post #32

I work at an intersection of tech, applied research, and science. Something I’ve noticed in collaboration that does occur is an increased confidence in people outside their domains to say things with conviction. I have people who have limited experience with software pushing out layers and layers of abstracted code that’s fairly sophisticated but often misguided in intent who will say what they’re doing is correct, w…

What do you suggest these people do instead? I’ve been frustrated by this recently: I pivoted to a new subfield and am working on stuff that I would love to dive deep into and really learn what is going on so I can speak intelligently about the tradeoffs etc. But that would take a long time, and I have tasks that I should get done. So I have found myself working with a pretty vague understanding that, when pressed by…

I have a very similar experience, and am very frustrated too.

I could (and do) lay blame on this new culture that "in the age of AI" things are there to be done, not learned, and doing is cheap (even if badly).

But I'm also particularly frustrated with myself for going along with it, and becoming that person.

I've never been that person. So on the one hand I feel I pressure to adapt or die. On the other hand adapting is dying, in a sense.

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#216

Post by svachalek »

NichoPaolucci wrote: post #200
Frost1x wrote: post #32

I work at an intersection of tech, applied research, and science. Something I’ve noticed in collaboration that does occur is an increased confidence in people outside their domains to say things with conviction. I have people who have limited experience with software pushing out layers and layers of abstracted code that’s fairly sophisticated but often misguided in intent who will say what they’re doing is correct, w…

Wow, oddly similar thing happened to me. Anecdotally, I was working with a non-developer. She was building a reporting dashboard with Claude. I pointed out that the system she built was using the filesystem to store one line notes about the report, and I said "I would probably tell the agent to use a database for that, but it's not the end of the world if it works". And she replied "Claude said the developer's right,…

Yeah I've felt that gut punch all the time. Seems to happen with every technology. In the early days of GPS, people would ask for directions to the gas station then pull it up on their phone map and go "yeah, you're right!" So thanks for wasting my time, insulting my integrity, and killing my faith in humanity all in 3 words. And if you really need two opinions, it's so easy to just reverse the situation, "my GPS says there's an Exxon in two miles if I turn left here and then right, is that correct?"

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#217

Post by huurtehoog »

giva wrote: post #180
huurtehoog wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLM tools tend confirm what you come to them with, be it unfounded conviction or doubt. I find them quite useless to tell me things I don't know, as verifying what they say shows that any non-trivial claims they make are usually oversimplified or plain wrong. Anything more than using them to just pointing me to media and literature is usually a waste of time.

I find quite useful to write down my understanding/opinion and ask an LLM to find errors and write objections to it.

I have done that as well. Not a single time I asked an LLM for any sort of analysis that I could trust upon verification so I stopped doing that. If I need verify, much easier to just ask for suggestions of papers and books and do the analysis myself.

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#218

Post by HWR_14 »

conductr wrote: post #67
varjag wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, the arrogance when barging into unfamiliar domain that was previously reserved mainly to physics grads seems to have spread everywhere. I also had people opining on my expert area via their LLMs and the problem is they can't even ask the model the right question, let alone evaluate the nuance of their answer.

As an unfamiliar, I find it interesting how you specifically called out physics grads in the pre-LLM era. Is that just snark or is there some widespread truth / stereotype of that behavior?

It's a widespread stereotype at least: https://xkcd.com/793/

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#219

Post by sdthjbvuiiijbb »

teiferer wrote: post #193
wrsh07 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw, I only did the first 300 words (signed into pangram) and it seemingly correctly noted that there were 2 (mostly) human-authored sentences in there What's wild to me is that: 1. People are responding to this article like it's hitting a nerve 2. In most Ubers you already don't talk to the driver (yellow cabs are higher variance in NYC). Doesn't seem like anything's being lost in that case. 3. There are enormous s…

Have you actually read the article? They point out multiple times that they like the Waymo ride and would use one again and loved it. It's not a Waymo-bashing article, it cautions against the long term effects on research. And here you have it — I used an LLM-ism. Oh, and now another one! Time to downvote me for supposed LLM use! (Which I obviously didn't, I'm typing this on an ancient smartphone waiting for a train,…

Calling it "witch hunting" is just dishonest. That term implies a baseless overreaction to a heavily exaggerated or imagined threat.

That's hardly what's going on here. Unlike witches, AI slop really is everywhere and it's pretty clear that this article is slop.

I find complaining about AI callouts to be itself deeply distasteful although it would take some thought to put my finger on the exact reasons why.

Re: The Waymo effect: how AI is quietly making research less collaborative

#220

Post by ddosmax556 »

philippemnoel wrote: post #199

The notion that "every human interaction is worth preserving" is probably not right, and Waymos are showcasing this. As the author mentions, many people don't enjoy the forced small talk with Uber drivers. Interacting with people from different backgrounds and perspectives is important, but I doubt the forced interactions like taxi rides are where we were getting those until day.

Completely agree. I think there is a danger that we will loose important interactions because we don't need them, but there's also a chance that we skip unimportant ones and focus on important ones.

If being in a Waymo alone causes you to be more comfortable to chat with people on the phone, it can even have a positive effect, for example.

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