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NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

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Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#211

Post by jfengel »

delusional wrote: post #145
jfengel wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people more or less understand that. Nobody likes ads. Everyone realizes that the ads they're seeing are targeted. But I think every web designer knows that putting even the slightest barrier between the user and the content drives away vast numbers of people. Making them enter a credit card -- even if you told them it would never be charged -- would send enormous numbers away. Many won't even create a free a…

> But I think every web designer knows that putting even the slightest barrier between the user and the content drives away vast numbers of people. I have a pet theory that these business models paper over the vast worthlessness of many modern technologies. That the value of Facebook is not in it's technologies or network, but rather in the arbitrage of the value of data when combined. We pay for the nearly worthless…

Entertainment is a value. People spend a lot of money on movies and video games, and I don't think we'd call them worthless even though they produce nothing.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#212

Post by f33d5173 »

gnramires wrote: post #191

Something I think is worth pointing out: this is happening in the Netherlands, i.e. their jurisdiction. I think most people here aren't from the Netherlands. I think they should be free to try out the legislation they want, and people elsewhere don't need to agree. It's good that different countries can try different things, and if that doesn't work it's a lesson for other places, and if it works that's even better.…

It's the implementation of an eu wide law. Judges in other countries might rule differently, but this isn't really an example of the netherlands going its own way and experimenting.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#213

Post by callc »

whalesalad wrote: post #184
callc wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me offer a different opinion. Facebook is a massive part of social media. Billions of users. It is apart of society in its sheer size. A society decided “we want to make this better” and acted appropriately. I think it’s a noble pursuit for a society to attempt to reduce the clearly negative aspects of social media. There is no real freedom of choice. The network effect cements big players positions. Try telling…

> There is no real freedom of choice but there is? simply choose to not use facebook.

I guess so, and that definitely is the healthier option! That’s what I’ve been doing for close to 15 years.

The only way you can exist on the modern world is to accept the TOS and crap that a small number of companies are in control over. Saying “just don’t use major tech services” makes people revert back to older methods like snail mail, which is just silly, not a real choice.

The consequences of “simply choosing no” matters. If that means you can’t interact in modern society, that means that service is essential, and should be tested as such.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#214

Post by mgraczyk »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #68

They need to just ban the ad model and make subscriptions (including free with no ads, if the provider wants it) mandatory. I don't think people understand how the economics of these apps (and websites) work, and it's been so long now that their incorrect assumptions (the feeds are free and the greedy providers shove ads in them) have turned into bedrock beliefs. You pay for instagram with your personal data, which i…

This is also a misunderstanding. Not how it works economically.

You do not pay for Instagram with your personal data. The data is elsewhere, not on Instagram. For example with your local retailer or credit card company.

Instagram pays for data about you, which they buy from other people. You do not have a say in this for the most part. Whether or not Instagram buys this data does not affect its collection.

You pay for Instagram with your time spent watching ads. The data they collect about you is mostly not for ads, it's to get you to spend more time on Instagram

To make it clear why this matters: If you banned advertising on social media, the amount of data collected about you would not decrease

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#215

Post by advisedwang »

richwater wrote: post #112
suddenlybananas wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bars are heavily, heavily regulated actually. You could have chosen a better example.

They're heavily regulated but not regarding what liqueur and beer they have to offer...which is exactly what OP was comparing it to.

Many jurisdictions do in fact include what drinks are available as license conditions. E.g. A license for beer and wine can be easier to get than a license for liquor. Or brewery (beer only) get a special category with less restrictions (e.g. they aren't required to provide food) etc etc

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#216

Post by notatoad »

afavour wrote: post #153
jfengel wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people more or less understand that. Nobody likes ads. Everyone realizes that the ads they're seeing are targeted. But I think every web designer knows that putting even the slightest barrier between the user and the content drives away vast numbers of people. Making them enter a credit card -- even if you told them it would never be charged -- would send enormous numbers away. Many won't even create a free a…

> Everyone realizes that the ads they're seeing are targeted. To an extent. I think if everyday users were shown just how much personal data follows them around from site to site I think they’d be horrified. Enough to change their habits? Possibly not. But I don’t think people have full understanding.

this is just the tech-person habit of assuming that users are less informed than they are. go ask an "everyday user" how much they think instagram tracks them. i think you'll be surprised at what their assumptions are. most people i know (including my extremely non-tech-savvy parents) understand that "the algorithm" knows everything they do on the computer, and that's how both ads and content get targeted to them. they don't necessarily understand that amazon, facebook, and google are different algorithms, or even different companies, but they know that there is an algorithm, and that it's train-able from their usage.

a huge number of people think their ads are targeted based on their phone microphone always listening to them. and they don't change any habits as a result of that assumption.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#217

Post by arccy »

ankit219 wrote: post #195

The headline is provocative. The issue is simple: Meta has a recommended feed and another feed which is reverse chronological. The option is hidden and not default, and all the NL judge is asking is for that option to be preserved and not be reset everytime user opens the app/website. Instagram never had this option, this does not say whether they have to implement it too. I would be curious if the order stands as fo…

on the Instagram mobile app: long press their logo to switch from the recommended feed to your following feed, in reverse chronological order

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#218

Post by vanviegen »

quotemstr wrote: post #53
delbronski wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European, I much prefer technological stagnation over technological progress that is harmful to society.

Civilizations that think this way get conquered by ones that don't, and afterwards, nobody much cares what they thought.

If we're talking about actual technological innovation, then yes perhaps.

In this case we're talking about social media 'innovation' though. The science and art of getting a population highly addicted to doom scrolling. I'm not sure if that will help said population outcompete the other guys.

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#219

Post by vanviegen »

troupo wrote: post #126
richwater wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're heavily regulated but not regarding what liqueur and beer they have to offer...which is exactly what OP was comparing it to.

> but not regarding what liqueur and beer they have to offer Try selling moonshine you brewed under the counter, and you'll quickly learn how much regulation there is.

> moonshine you brewed under the counter

That sounds like as good a metaphor for addictive and unhealthy social media feeds as any! :-)

Re: NL Judge: Meta must respect user's choice of recommendation system

#220

Post by skrebbel »

nhinck2 wrote: post #57

I wish I could make youtube default to the subscriber behaviour.

I use an extension called Unhook which has, as one of its many great options, a mode that disables the algorithmic youtube feed and auto-redirects the homepage to your subscriptions page (which is just reverse-chronological)

(it also lets you disable Shorts and suggestions and so on, pretty fantastic actually)

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