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The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

kitze.io

211–220 of 316 posts

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#211
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get two bonuses every year - one for individual achievement and one for profit sharing.

You and every other programmer on the planet then? Or, what is your comment meant to claim exactly, beyond the extremely obvious "there are exceptions to the rule" trope?

Well the original notion here was

> Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement

That as a blanket statement is just not true. Of course it does not apply to every single developer, I would even say it doesn’t apply to the majority.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and every other programmer on the planet then? Or, what is your comment meant to claim exactly, beyond the extremely obvious "there are exceptions to the rule" trope?

Well the original notion here was > Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement That as a blanket statement is just not true. Of course it does not apply to every single developer, I would even say it doesn’t apply to the majority.

It is true when it applies to the majority (and nobody said something is only true when it applies to 100% of a group because then absolutely nothing would ever be true when it comes to people). If you think otherwise and are convinced of it then you are very privileged -- and I actually envy you. You have no idea what contractor programmers go through out there, apparently.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#213
post #143

I'm expecting to experience this any day now. I've experienced it before, seeing people make hundreds of millions of dollars on an idea I'd already built (and my employer had fumbled the marketing of) and was actively working to resurrect... but couldn't figure out how to "monetize." Currently my problem is being a one-man band. I've realized I can't "just ship" a product that relies on a hand-rolled user-authorizati…

> I've realized I can't "just ship" a product that relies on a hand-rolled user-authorization scheme that I create with very little experience. Time to ship and get the experience :) It is probably not that bad as you think it is. You can also ask others if they see any obvious security/cryptography fails and you would do better than most including big companies... > So now I've interrupted my whole project to learn…

Thanks for the advice! I did run a somewhat similar app with essentially no API security on a cheap-ass Linode VPS around 2011. But we only had 10-20K users and those extremely sporadic. But, although users controlled their content, it was totally anonymous. I didn't require a single credential, not even an E-mail address.

One thing about Supabase is that it's supposed to offer user verification through E-mail out of the box, which saves me the time of hand-rolling that.

The reason I want containers is to spin up multiple instances if the thing blows up. Isn't it easier to do that with containerized services?

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

It's more contextual than that. In some cases, ship vs not ship, profit vs not profit, is the difference between a company thriving and failing to thrive. In others, there are second- or third-order effects that render marginal profitability kind of irrelevant to the trajectory. This usually applies to either very large / institutional orgs, or situations where the business is leveraged by investors (VC or PE) such t…

> In some cases, ship vs not ship, profit vs not profit, is the difference between a company thriving and failing to thrive.

That's their problem, not mine. I get paid a fixed amount. If I get paid the same + a percentage of outcome then I'll change how I work.

Easy to understand, I believe.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#215
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call it (doing the bare minimum required) "organizational laziness" and I hate it. It might be rational, but it leads to mediocrity.

OK, hire me, and if I over-perform and help you achieve a business target, I want a triple salary next month. Or better still, 20% of the extra profit. No? Then you'll keep seeing what you call "mediocrity". I am a pretty good programmer and have literally saved businesses, several times over the course of my career. Never again though. A pat on the back is not enough of a reward.

Sorry to disappoint, but.. I don't want to hire you. I am a socialist, I find labor markets morally objectionable. The above is one reason, putting pursuit of profit above human excellence leads to mediocrity.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#216

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

I started writing a reply about how the context is very different between indie side projects and your work environment, but then your post morphed into a comment about the role of a programmer in an organisation, and so did my reply. Firstly, I sense you are frustrated in your current post and I sense you are not in step with your management or perhaps not even in step with your coworkers. I sympathize with your pre…

> Yeah its nice to adopt the "code my problem, business not" position. It seems like the moral high ground.

What? No.

It's the economically and humanly well-balanced position. I got a wife whom I love to spend time with and I don't want to live on the computer. 8 hours is already way too much. I do what is expected of me and maybe a little more, for the rest they'll have to pay extra or give me parts of the profit.

If not, they'll get baseline performance.

It is always so mind-bendingly odd to watch people claim that you can go above and beyond as if that has zero side effects on any other aspects of your life.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started writing a reply about how the context is very different between indie side projects and your work environment, but then your post morphed into a comment about the role of a programmer in an organisation, and so did my reply. Firstly, I sense you are frustrated in your current post and I sense you are not in step with your management or perhaps not even in step with your coworkers. I sympathize with your pre…

If we waste resources overengineering everything, it takes resources away from other parts of society that require them.

Good thing that 100% of all programmers go out there and volunteer all the time they saved at work.

Oh wait, no they don't.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#218
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, hire me, and if I over-perform and help you achieve a business target, I want a triple salary next month. Or better still, 20% of the extra profit. No? Then you'll keep seeing what you call "mediocrity". I am a pretty good programmer and have literally saved businesses, several times over the course of my career. Never again though. A pat on the back is not enough of a reward.

Sorry to disappoint, but.. I don't want to hire you. I am a socialist, I find labor markets morally objectionable. The above is one reason, putting pursuit of profit above human excellence leads to mediocrity.

I too strive to be humanly excellent. I don't strive to make my boss' bonus bigger.

Start your thought process by making the extremely obvious distinction between these two.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#219
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has to be satire. "Do the wrong thing unless it's for you, in which case ship it earlier", "your job is to make you feel good about what you put in your CV", and other amazing quotes. The only thing of value in the whole comment is saying to not get too attached to any job or worry too much if you get fired, but even the reason given for it is wrong. Incredible to realize I probably work alongside a few people w…

Which part of his comment was satire exactly? He mentioned that your job as Software Engineer is to focus on Software quality and push against on unreasonable deadlines. It is NOT your job to make sure the company is hitting its sales targets, that's the management's job. If you think this is satire, you are in the wrong profession and frankly I'm amazed that on a website called Hacker news, people are attacking pare…

it's just written in such an over the top, office-space, Dilbert-esque, somebody's-got-a-case-of-the-Mondays style that it's hard to take seriously. Yeah, don't write absolute trash code, but also don't spend three years architecting the most beautiful, most modular code and run out of money before you ship; you ain't gonna need it. If you're programming from a place that's so far removed from customers that you don't care about sales, what are you even doing? Just writing code for the sake of writing code? If the only person you're writing code for is yourself, that's fine. this is the Internet age and there are a ton of unbelievably awesome passion projects out there, like that engine noise one. But the rest of us are writing code for some sort of purpose which involves other people using the product that the code is being written for, and sometimes money changes hands.

There's software quality, and there's that one guy who over-engineer's everything and just loves writing frameworks and never ships actual product. Without seeing actual demands and code, it's impossible to know which of the two categories they fit into, but it reads like the latter of the two.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#220
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Ofcourse it is fair. How can you say you get nothing back? They pay you salary you agreed on when signed contract. > My first job as a developer made me work around the clock Bad employer. Maybe doesn't obey the contract on their side and doesn't pay for overtime. Tough one until you level up your experience for sure. But I'd expect salary…

> You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker. 22.5 years later I can confidently say you are living in a comfortable bubble and have no idea what do most programmers go through every day.

I would say that their view is akin to religion. Any religion really.

And religion is not always bad. It can help us stay focused, and selfless for some unknown greater good.

That greater good does not have to exist. But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul.

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