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The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

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Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#181

Post by vasco »

aydyn wrote: post #170
vasco wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has to be satire. "Do the wrong thing unless it's for you, in which case ship it earlier", "your job is to make you feel good about what you put in your CV", and other amazing quotes. The only thing of value in the whole comment is saying to not get too attached to any job or worry too much if you get fired, but even the reason given for it is wrong. Incredible to realize I probably work alongside a few people w…

No, everyone lives life in the same "game theory quadrant" whatever that means. People primarily play for themselves including you, some people are just more aware of this fact than others. And also its still always rational to defect.

That's not true, I have many examples I've seen of people putting themselves second. Of course everyone has these thoughts and actions and needs to reflect and be self aware, but it's not true that everyone is just always out for themselves, in fact that's the type of world view that leads people into the wrong quadrant and it's a bit of a depressing world view. I think you understood exactly what I meant by wrong quadrant, from your reply.

Don't you know anyone that donates money? Or that volunteers their time? Or that doesn't use all their deductions when doing taxes? Haven't you read stories about people who anonymously donate kidneys? There's so many examples - and the only way for your world view to "work" is if all of them only do these things for selfish reasons.

At some point one has to acknowledge and believe in good and cooperation and decide if they mostly want to try and operate in coop mode or in selfish mode, but the more you believe others are likely to choose coop, the more like you are to do the same. So you need to start from the belief that good and coop are things other people will also choose. Your world view prevents this "from the start".

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#182

Post by potsandpans »

Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

What a weird screed.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#183

Post by netmare »

thekitze wrote: post #109
raincole wrote: post #28

Perhaps it's just me, but I can't stand the "I'm trying so hard to be funny" writing style.

it's not just you, people have different preferences and that's fine :D

I'm also not a fan of overly-funny writing, but I just wanted to say that I found your style quite enjoyable. Maybe it's because a can relate somewhat to your situation... :b

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#184

Post by throwaway7ahgb »

fabioborellini wrote: post #139
chickenchase-rd wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its rare in any field to be compensated for any extraordinary achievement. But these are the people I like to work with.

Surgeons save lives which they may find important and motivating per se. Grinding meaningless Javascript to deliver more advertisements and conflict to people is neither motivating nor important, or at least it shouldn't be to a responsive person.

1) Not all surgeons save lives

2) Not everyone can be a doctor

We can all find meaning in our own work.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#185

Post by fabioborellini »

throwaway84751 wrote: post #153
fabioborellini wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without cha…

It sounds like a toxic workplace, but you should do yourself a big favor and try to put that behind you. If you keep that mindset in your new job, your perspective will be negative and you risk burning out. If you work at a traditional workplace, think of yourself as a professional. Do the best work you can during business hours, without ruining your health. The company is paying you to make decisions that are best f…

I'm sorry to say but I'm very much burned out already. It all went well for a while after switching jobs, but the lockdowns and remote work ruined what was left of my life. My friends noted that they don't miss me, my company switched to completely remote etc. I can now only sleep and work, I can't even think of anything else anymore.

I did put that behind me after switching jobs.

My initial outlook and attitude on professional life was that I need to try hard and stay positive and help everyone. I expected other people to work for common goals, put their own goals aside, and be friendly. As in school, that mostly lead to abuse. I'm only advocating against trying too hard because I've hurt myself with it.

As a child, I was taught to go the extra mile, work in a sustainable manner and never blame anyone. At work, I have never refused to work on a problem because it's not my fault or someone else would be a better fit for it - and that makes me a very good scapegoat and a fine target for impossible requests.

Guess what happened? I'm right now stuck with a person who is asking daily for something I have explained to be impossible, and does not accept my answer. So he asks again. I have no idea what to do.

I can't set boundaries or take care of myself, so I'm a bad employee and a bad person who doesn't try enough. Great.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#186

Post by achenet »

b112 wrote: post #132
achenet wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that scene from Office Space where he talks about "I do just enough not to get fired" may be relevant here. There is something to be said for 'if you're going to be a rational economic actor and you have a salaried job, the optimal strategy is finish your job's tasks as fast as possible and work on a personal project which you control the upside to with all your extra energy'. From a purely economic point of view, sp…

No, Office Space depicted a horrible office environment, most are not such. And minimalist work ethic is a poor one, regardless of hand wavy, trumped up, rationalizations.

you can be very hard working on things that aren't your day job.

As I'm writing these words, an aspiring musician is probably sleepwalking through his day job because he was up all night practicing his music.

Or Paul Graham, when he talks about writing the book On Lisp during his time at Interleaf [0]

[0] https://paulgraham.com/worked.html

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#187

Post by throwaway7ahgb »

ggeorgovassilis wrote: post #151
flappyeagle wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you watch a great salesperson in action it’s like magic. It’s like watching a chess player find moves you couldn’t have found in a million years. They chose the right words that converted to motions of neurons in your counterparty that caused action by them to give you money. Crazy.

> When you watch a great salesperson in action it’s like magic. That, a hundred times. It's otherworldly, transcends laws of reality. That's why I dislike most salespeople I met, who don't tire of iterating how important sales are, but never come even close to what a great salesperson can deliver.

In my history the best sales people I've met wouldn't have me believe they were in sales at all. They are just great at relationships and solving problems for clients. You want to give them your money to solve your problem.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#188

Post by damethos »

freilanzer wrote: post #135
b112 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair Get nothing?! What a strange way to view a paycheque. "Hi, you're only paying me, but that's not enough to expect a solid work ethic. Instead, I'll make sure my work is just passable. Want more, and now you have to pay me mo…

You get a salary for doing the expected work, not extraordinary work.

What is this "extraordinary work" we are talking about here exactly?

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#189

Post by astura »

freilanzer wrote: post #134
portaouflop wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions t…

I have never known a software developer who got a bonus. Rarely even recognition.

I get two bonuses every year - one for individual achievement and one for profit sharing.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#190

Post by b112 »

piva00 wrote: post #150
b112 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Office Space depicted a horrible office environment, most are not such. And minimalist work ethic is a poor one, regardless of hand wavy, trumped up, rationalizations.

> And minimalist work ethic is a poor one, regardless of hand wavy, trumped up, rationalizations. That's a very protestant work ethic worldview. Doing what is expected from what you're being paid in the best way possible is not a poor work ethic, it's a pretty rational one. The other side of it where one always strive to do more, to go above and beyond what you're being compensated for, and so forth can also be a qui…

Trying to bring religion into this is beyond amusing. I guess the Japanese are all protestants? Hardly. And rationalizing poor behaviour by saying it's rational is another good one. Lastly, you're trying to shift the discussion by claiming "best way possible" as opposed to others saying "do the bare minimum". These are very often not the same.

The problem is, people don't "get it". There are people in this thread protesting about "doing poor quality work", eg, "racking up tech debt". Why?

Because it eats at them. Because they are in this to build, and build that which holds, which has value.

They have pride in their work! Yet the response some have here is simply don't do the best you can do. These two things are counter to one another!

I am advocating that yes, do the best you can do. Take joy, deep internal joy in doing your job correctly, because of what you build. This indeed does not mean doing the bare minimum, by some broken, made up rationalized excuse.

As I said, a good work ethic is not a protestant thing, it is a human thing.

We can expand this to everything. What are you being compensated for? Are your ethics formed around what's profitable?! Madness!

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