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The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

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Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#201

Post by swat535 »

vasco wrote: post #87
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

This has to be satire. "Do the wrong thing unless it's for you, in which case ship it earlier", "your job is to make you feel good about what you put in your CV", and other amazing quotes. The only thing of value in the whole comment is saying to not get too attached to any job or worry too much if you get fired, but even the reason given for it is wrong. Incredible to realize I probably work alongside a few people w…

Which part of his comment was satire exactly?

He mentioned that your job as Software Engineer is to focus on Software quality and push against on unreasonable deadlines. It is NOT your job to make sure the company is hitting its sales targets, that's the management's job.

If you think this is satire, you are in the wrong profession and frankly I'm amazed that on a website called Hacker news, people are attacking parent for this advise. Then again, perhaps not since most people here are focused on startups churning out products with unreasonable deadlines.

No wonder no one takes Software seriously if _this_ is the attitude from the self proclaimed "Engineers" themselves..

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#202

Post by manmal »

treve wrote: post #122
manmal wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing you‘re a CTO, I‘m a bit concerned for your staff (if any) if your first reflex is blaming the developer for not trusting their boss.

Not my intent to assign blame, it just sounds like a toxic workplace. I've been there! The better places I've worked were more focused on compromise, experimentation and taking shared responsibility for risk.

Thanks for elaborating, this helps understand where you are coming from.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#203

Post by throwaway84751 »

jamesfinlayson wrote: post #47
jascha_eng wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Maybe statement instead of query would be more accurate but I think people get the gist of it just fine. Also, I disagree a manual query like: "select * from credit_cards;" should probably go through an approval flow if you have a table like that in your prod env.

A guy I used to work with said he worked for a company where all queries had to get approved by one of two full time DBAs - apparently with good reason as someone tried to modify a query that would have joined with half the rows in some gigantic table.

I worked at a place where only certain teams with a dedicated DBA were trusted to write direct queries (based on past incidents). All other teams had to ask a central DBA team to build stored procedures for any interaction with the database. If you think that this would create a huge backlog, you are correct... Non critical updates also needed to be coordinated with a "release train" where the code had to be ready 2 weeks before deployment due to the amount of testing it required. It was one of the major drivers behind an initiative to create micro services with separate databases that each team could do what they wanted with.

We ended up with a huge number of micro services and special orchestrator services to handle distributed transactions. But I guess that in a company of that scale, there are no perfect solution. At least we were able to make changes within minutes/hours instead of weeks.

Paradoxically we also got more pressure to deliver. In the past it was acceptable to leave a healthy buffer at the end of the scrum, to avoid missing the release train. This meant that we often spent the remaining buffer on refactoring, fixing small bugs that we felt we had time for or experimenting with POCs.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#204

Post by pdimitar »

astura wrote: post #189
freilanzer wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never known a software developer who got a bonus. Rarely even recognition.

I get two bonuses every year - one for individual achievement and one for profit sharing.

You and every other programmer on the planet then?

Or, what is your comment meant to claim exactly, beyond the extremely obvious "there are exceptions to the rule" trope?

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#205

Post by pdimitar »

throwaway84751 wrote: post #153
fabioborellini wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without cha…

It sounds like a toxic workplace, but you should do yourself a big favor and try to put that behind you. If you keep that mindset in your new job, your perspective will be negative and you risk burning out. If you work at a traditional workplace, think of yourself as a professional. Do the best work you can during business hours, without ruining your health. The company is paying you to make decisions that are best f…

> It sounds like a toxic workplace

Like most workplaces on the planet. Check your bubble.

I agree with your advice but you have to understand that many people start families and that tilts the table in favor of the employer; people become very risk-averse and dare not refuse anything. This is a fact and it's happening every second to dozens, if not hundreds, of millions of people out there.

> Unfortunately there are many toxic workplaces out there, and if I ended up "trapped" with no escape, I would probably consider things differently.

Please do. Living paycheck to paycheck is the reality of most working people.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#206

Post by pdimitar »

throwaway84751 wrote: post #198
fabioborellini wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry to say but I'm very much burned out already. It all went well for a while after switching jobs, but the lockdowns and remote work ruined what was left of my life. My friends noted that they don't miss me, my company switched to completely remote etc. I can now only sleep and work, I can't even think of anything else anymore. I did put that behind me after switching jobs. My initial outlook and attitude on p…

It sounds like you have ended up in a bad situation. There's no real suggestion I can provide for how you can improve your situation, other than to try to find a way to disconnect. (Meetups, walking, museums, hobbies). Maybe that means talking to a professional therapist to find out how you can handle the situation. They get paid to help you, and there is no shame in that

They usually get paid by the hour so they have a vested interest to talk BS and prolong the session as much as they can.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#207

Post by portaouflop »

Elinvynia wrote: post #195
portaouflop wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions t…

Make the company 100 millions and you are lucky to see more than 10k of it. If you believe otherwise I would question your real life experience.

I’m not saying it’s perfectly proportional to the value created, I was challenging the notion that devs are these wages slaves chained to their desks who never get anything extra while their managers swim in money

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#208

Post by pdimitar »

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #147
fabioborellini wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Do the expected work well, but don't sacrifice yourself so that other people can use, abuse and eventually desert you.

Having the interests of the bottom line of the business in mind does not equate to sacrificing yourself. Do what's expected in the interests of the business, not in pursuit of some "great software" ideal.

> Having the interests of the bottom line of the business in mind does not equate to sacrificing yourself.

Only in theory. In practice, the incompetent leadership leads to those naturally being identical, as in "we have to deliver project 17 for this year, please do your best!!!" and ad infinitum.

> Do what's expected in the interests of the business, not in pursuit of some "great software" ideal.

Who mentioned this? Only you. A projection on your part, it seems.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#209

Post by pdimitar »

js8 wrote: post #155
achenet wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that scene from Office Space where he talks about "I do just enough not to get fired" may be relevant here. There is something to be said for 'if you're going to be a rational economic actor and you have a salaried job, the optimal strategy is finish your job's tasks as fast as possible and work on a personal project which you control the upside to with all your extra energy'. From a purely economic point of view, sp…

I call it (doing the bare minimum required) "organizational laziness" and I hate it. It might be rational, but it leads to mediocrity.

OK, hire me, and if I over-perform and help you achieve a business target, I want a triple salary next month. Or better still, 20% of the extra profit.

No? Then you'll keep seeing what you call "mediocrity".

I am a pretty good programmer and have literally saved businesses, several times over the course of my career.

Never again though. A pat on the back is not enough of a reward.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#210

Post by pdimitar »

b112 wrote: post #132
achenet wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that scene from Office Space where he talks about "I do just enough not to get fired" may be relevant here. There is something to be said for 'if you're going to be a rational economic actor and you have a salaried job, the optimal strategy is finish your job's tasks as fast as possible and work on a personal project which you control the upside to with all your extra energy'. From a purely economic point of view, sp…

No, Office Space depicted a horrible office environment, most are not such. And minimalist work ethic is a poor one, regardless of hand wavy, trumped up, rationalizations.

> No, Office Space depicted a horrible office environment, most are not such.

You are right.

...Most are much worse. :D

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