As a person that used to be a “human scribe” but for emergency dept doctors. I would say the ER doctors shared the same experience as the one depicted in the news story. For a doctor that was nearing the age of retirement or had very poor keyboard proficiency. scribes were a godsend. Doctors worried less about documentation and focused more on patient care. Of course they still wrote things like admission orders, pre…
>> Documenting it so that it can be billed appropriately is also crucial. This is literally the only reason why scribes, or pretty much any EMR exist. EMRs are an accounting tool. To avoid "down coding" and legal exposure . Plain and simple. There's a reason that doctors would not adopt EMRs for the longest time (at least in the US, don't know other nations) until actual legislation was passed to force them to do so,…
Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
211–220 of 274 posts
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#212As a person that used to be a “human scribe” but for emergency dept doctors. I would say the ER doctors shared the same experience as the one depicted in the news story. For a doctor that was nearing the age of retirement or had very poor keyboard proficiency. scribes were a godsend. Doctors worried less about documentation and focused more on patient care. Of course they still wrote things like admission orders, pre…
Yeah but you can't get that genie back in the bottle. Once these data are made available to private industry it's only a matter of lobbyists chipping away at whatever protections were initially legislated. See Also: your TV, phone, car, fucking doorbell, and fridge are all spying on you.
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like you were trying to make a point here, but I have no idea what it was.
We are made of electrons. Every electron is the same. Electrons have no sense of privacy.
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#214Obviously, Medical and privacy issues in this story that make this case more complex, but anyone on HN not looking into ways that AI can streamline their lives and jobs at this point is doing themselves a disservice. Yes, there are limitations. Yes, there are times when it goes down the wrong path or actually makes things worse, but those are getting fewer and further between. Things like Otter, Aider, Cursor, GPT Vi…
Your argument is also kind of silly. Yes, go ahead and submit all your life notes since 2k to Big Tech. What does that have to do with the larger context of how these tools are deployed, and specifically in the medical field where people do expect some semblance of privacy and is already regulated to some degree?
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
I honestly don't love taxpayer funding being used - unless the underlying technology is open sourced and available for commercial use, so then the free market can make improvements on it, etc. Or funding situations like e.g. "we'll pay for you if the doctor/practitioner chooses your software" - but otherwise the free market is efficient, and unelected people administering taxpayer money have no real incentive to not…
> but otherwise the free market is efficient Efficient in routing public goods to a locked box maybe
What are your thoughts on patents?
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, the reality is likely once they get access to the data, are allowed to use it - they will likely be happy to be grandfathered into their accelerated position if legislation passes to create barriers of entry by preventing such mass data gather/access without express permission - to have an advantage on competition; but generally this won't be a winning tactic in the end because trust is the most important facto…
The mere implication that consumers can be driven by privacy concerns flies in the face of 20 years of observed reality so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that that is credibly possible. Objectively consumers are driven primarily by convenience, with cost coming in a close second.
Most of the pundits of Bitcoin and similar - an evolution of the finance industrial complex - seem to claim that the reason there isn't wider adoption is that the "first killer app" hasn't been developed yet. I'd argue it's because its adoption is motivated by profit-greed, which requires a wealth transfer from new adopters to the ones passing off hodling the bag.
Many of the core-fundamental values put forward, what many hope Bitcoin et al would solve, are virtuous and attempting-hoping to solve complex problems - but Bitcoin from a holistic systems perspective, where all consequences are integrated, doesn't fit the bill for what will become the next stable evolution of how society functions with technology. I'd argue similarly to privacy concerns, the solutions that Bitcoin hodlers are aiming for - if they care about such things other than profit from buying low-selling high during pumps and dumps - simply haven't had a viable non-hype and non-greed-driven solution made available yet.
This current wave as a result of industrial complexes forming to maximize their ROI at all costs, first-to-market and maximizing profits allows them to dominate - but for how long? Maybe a decade ago now I wrote a blog post on Facebook's governance, pointing out FB's attempt to maximize profit now will certainly increase annual revenues/profits in the short-term - but would you rather have lower profits for 20+ years or higher profits for 5+ years?
Mark not being an idea person, not a creative - where everyone in tech should know his story involving the ConnectU twins who had hired him - and so he wasn't able to navigate to design and evolve a system to fully harness the potential of having what's essentially a free marketing platform for him as the controller - instead mostly depending on network effect defense strategies including buying up feature sets like WhatsApp, Instagram, etc - who gained a critical mass that could begin to become a competitor with FB, so no real innovation.
The VC industrial complex has been a driver in selecting for all of this, and where acquisitions also suck up and eliminate any up and coming competition that gained enough market share and momentum to be a threat; the incumbent dating and food-delivery platforms-apps are the most obvious for this; the captured MSM is another less obvious version of this, where conglomeration from consolidation has put the power of information control in the hands of fewer and fewer people - why big pharma has been so successful suppressing the majority of negative sentiment about them, as one of multiple parties who are toeing the line and attempting to maintain control with what I call the censorship-suppression-narrative control apparatus; Elon buying Twitter-X created a #ZeroIsASpecialNumber problem in terms of no longer being able to as easily put their hand on the scale of free speech - a blow to their authoritarian-totalitarian and industrial complex dreams, that combination forming fascism.
Another example, I think the advertising industrial complex will collapse within the next decade.
Ads are probably tied at first with downvoting mechanisms for how detrimental of an effect they have on society - where I don't have time to dive into detailing reasons for either right now; they are not mimicking natural patterns for how information-attention was distributed prior to digital.
Business is war, and there are $ trillions at stake - and so who knows what all the various parties, millions to billions of people who most likely mostly blindly follow the status quo system because they believe that they will do better off - those who struggled to get where they are in the manufactured rat race, and holding on for dear life due to fear, when in fact tyranny and scarcity mindset is very expensive - and where the universe provides all the abundance we need, and we can all thrive with proper organization.
“Those who love peace must learn to organize as effectively as those who love war.” — Martin Luther King, Jr.
Thanks for the convo! Please continue if you're motivated or inspired to!
P.S. I had 2 neck surgeries last week, so my pain level is down a lot - and so words are flowing out of me a bit easier, and apparently you inspired me to say far more than I was expecting, so thank you again.
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#217P.S. I'm the founder, so obviously biased :)
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#218There's no mention of data privacy. Since AI Scribe[0] study is a run by OntarioMD, the digital technology arm of the Ontario Medical Association, it might be okay but it would be nice if it declared it. From the AI Scribe link: > This project is funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health and overseen by Ontario Health. The study is currently underway, with 150 primary care providers already selected from diverse demog…
I honestly don't love taxpayer funding being used - unless the underlying technology is open sourced and available for commercial use, so then the free market can make improvements on it, etc. Or funding situations like e.g. "we'll pay for you if the doctor/practitioner chooses your software" - but otherwise the free market is efficient, and unelected people administering taxpayer money have no real incentive to not…
Yeah, not sure I'm onboard with that. I am onboard with open sourcing it via a foundation and accepting commercial contributions ala Linux kernel.
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#219Here is a similar open source project: https://github.com/josephrmartinez/soapscribe Just a starting point. But if you are interested in this space, fork away and build it into something useful! My personal take is that the current tools on the market are too expensive. The cost should go way, way down. This should stay open source. Patients should have easy access to full audio recordings and transcriptions of their…
Having worked in computing around medical facilities and providers, unfortunately, I believe this is just a pipe dream. Companies that charge a lot for the software will buy up the smaller companies providing services until only a few are left. They'll bundle it up with an expensive price tag. Even more so, providers tend to have protection when they buy a piece of software used by a large number of other providers.…
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
At that point, you've at least consulted with a medically trained professional who's licensed (which they have to regularly renew), has to complete annual CME, can be disciplined by a medical board, carries medical malpractice insurance, etc. There should be requirements for any AI tool provider in the medical space to go through something like an IRB ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board ) given…
In the context described, it's acting as a tool for a doctor. AI scribes are not conducting experiments.