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Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

globalnews.ca

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Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading and doing minor edits is much less of a cognitive load than writing. The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question.

> The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question. But that's what will inevitably happen at some point, when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes.

> But that's what will inevitably happen at some point, when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes.

So the same as doctors making occasional big dangerous mistakes that cause lives. Seems like it would be a win then as it takes some mental load off of doctors so they can focus on where they should, on the patients and not on note taking.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#92
As a person that used to be a “human scribe” but for emergency dept doctors. I would say the ER doctors shared the same experience as the one depicted in the news story. For a doctor that was nearing the age of retirement or had very poor keyboard proficiency. scribes were a godsend.

Doctors worried less about documentation and focused more on patient care. Of course they still wrote things like admission orders, prescriptions, and nurse orders. Scribes were often told to avoid doing these but sometimes the doctor was okay with it. I personally just told them to do it. Too much of a legal liability for both of parties.

But capturing all of the details of the history of present illness (HPI), patient medical history, review of systems, physical exam, procedures (if any) and medical decision making during patient visit can be a time consuming issue. Time increases with significantly more complex cases, especially one with more than one procedure.

Documenting it so that it can be billed appropriately is also crucial.

Prior to scribes, doctors would describe forgoing writing documentation all together at the end of the shift and writing it the next day or shift.

Obviously, this caused very poor documentation and opened up the doctor to legal issues (if they arise). Ambulance chasers can easily call out these inconsistent details between doctor notes, patient outcomes, and cross check with nursing notes.

Additionally, this caused cases to be billed incorrectly or “down coded” as well.

I don’t agree with allowing private companies unfettered/unregulated access to what is considered private medical information. But with appropriate controls on the data and who has access to it with full transparency, I think it can help in alleviating physical burn out.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangent here: really? I've found base Whisper has concerning error rates for non-US English accents; I imagine the same is true for other languages with a large regional mode to the source dataset. Whisper + an LLM can recover some of the gaps by filling in contextually plausible bits, but then it's not a transcript and may contain hallucinations. There are alternatives that share Whisper internal states with an LLM…

Language detection in the presence of strong accents is, in my opinion, one of the most under-discussed biases in AI. Traditional ASR systems struggle when English (or any language) is spoken with a heavy accent, often confusing it with another language. Whisper is also affected by this issue, as you noted. The root of this problem lies in how language detection typically works. It relies on analyzing audio via MFCC…

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Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question. But that's what will inevitably happen at some point, when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes.

> But that's what will inevitably happen at some point, when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes. So the same as doctors making occasional big dangerous mistakes that cause lives. Seems like it would be a win then as it takes some mental load off of doctors so they can focus on where they should, on the patients and not on note taking.

> So the same as doctors making occasional big dangerous mistakes that cause lives.

Will it be? There are already unanswered questions on who's liable if Tesla's FSD runs you into someone.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#95

Just the other day there were news about how many mistakes the AI-assisted journaling caused – wrong names, wrong diagnoses, typos (buksmärta -> kuksmärta which is hilarious but serious). Some of it is surely teething problems, but unless there is a robust check upon implementation it might just add another layer of inefficient new public management make-work to the system. https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/ai-journal…

This seems very similar to self driving cars. At the beginning they will be worse than humans and cause deaths that humans would have prevented while at the same time probably saving lives where a human would make a mistake. But not far down the road they'll become much better than humans even if they do occasionally make a mistake and cause a death that a human wouldn't' have they'll save far more lives due to them…

But not far down the road they'll become much better than humans

While I think you're correct, there is no proof this will ever be achieved.

It very well may not be possible along our current path. It may take a 100 years, 1000 to get there.

And yes it could take only 20 more. But to state this as a certainty?

No.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#96
post #89

> Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job Lemme rewrite this headline for a more interesting and relevant article that you might actually want to read: "Doctor hails notepad and pen as essential diagnostic tools."

The entire point of the article is that she no longer has to spend upwards of two hours a day using the notepad and pen.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#97
Privacy and hallucinations would concern me. It seems likely to me that relying on these tools will mean physicians will "trust" the output of these systems and stop checking the notes for accuracy. Checking the notes will become a burden too.

Maybe the real solution is to lower the amount of administrative work required? Or hire people to do it?

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to the shortage of doctors is to stop letting doctors decide the supply of doctors. Its a special interest problem. Doctors organize, bribe/lobby politicians, limit licenses, make extra money/get more power, repeat. The excuse 'there isnt enough surgeries', is a chicken and egg problem. More doctors lower the cost, making surgery more reasonable and not necessarily a last ditch option. Not to mention, we…

Yep. That’s what we do. You hit the nail right on the head. I saunter down to my local US senators house and bribe him, every month or so. Then our group created a fund where we bribe the president of the United States. We organized with all the other groups in the area and bribed the pope. Next we are going to find you in your house and bribe you.

You are using humor to distract from immoral behavior.

1) US Chamber of Commerce $1,882,365,680

2) National Assn of Realtors $849,607,903

3) American Hospital Assn $525,121,249

4) Pharmaceutical Research & Manufacturers of America $507,171,550

5) American Medical Assn $504,434,500

https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/top-spenders?cy...

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question. But that's what will inevitably happen at some point, when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes.

I don’t think we’re yet in a position where we can make claims about how inevitable certain outcomes are. It is important to remind people that technology of any sort can be error prone and that human oversight should be relied on for any automated process, LLM based or not! I work in the legal industry and every lawyer is aware of the guy who used ChatGPT to spit out non-existing case law!

Apparently not enough to prevent it from being repeated... One of Trump's former lawyers did it months after the first case made national news.

https://text.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222273745/michael-cohen-ai-...

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#100
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have residency spots shrunk per capita? Why do unmatched grads have to work at mcdonalds but NP's and PA's can practice with more latitude than some residents? (serious questions)

ACR for radiology is going on in Washington DC. Current staffing throughout the country is poor - over utilization of imaging and not enough radiologists. So we are lobbying for an increase in Medicare funding for residency positions (they are paid by Medicare). Also trying to get more J1 visas but that’s kind of dubious as we are taking physicians from another country who likely also needs physicians. I have no idea…

>So we are lobbying for an increase in Medicare funding for residency positions (they are paid by Medicare).

Hey taxpayers, can you pay for my grad degree too? Wait its worse, I actually profit during this period.

Don't worry that I'm the highest paid profession upon graduation.

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