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Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

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Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#81

Post by amkkma »

tomfreemax wrote: post #34

I think these tools are the solution to the shortage of doctors, and will greatly improve performance by taking more parameters into account. Not sure though if a simple LLM can do that. (Shortage of doctors is a thing at least in DE and CH) Doctors study like 10 years to follow a decision tree based on patient background and symptoms. Especially in countries where education is harder to get by this can be useful, I…

Don't forget ten years of schooling to be bad at formal methods to step out of that decision tree:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9237793/ https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2014/11/12/doctors-dont-k... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3016704/ https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/doctor-there-arhtml

And many more.

go to r/residency or other doctor forums if you want to see the most repugnant combination of dunning kruger and condescension

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#82

Post by rpeden »

nvy wrote: post #2

The root cause of this is that the billing system (which varies by Province) by which doctors actually get paid is a fee-for-service model. That means the system incentivizes doctors to see patients by only allowing them to get paid for actually seeing the patient: Give someone a vaccine? $15. Family doctor routine checkup? $34. The system is set up to reward the kind of doctor who sees 6 patients an hour and is on t…

Many family doctors in Ontario don't use the fee for service model.

Instead, they have a roster of patients and they recieve a flat fee every year for having a patient on their roster.

I'm not sure it changes any of the downsides you mentioned, though, since the yearly flat fee is quite low so doctors still need to minimize the time spent per patient.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#83

Post by CipherThrowaway »

tomfreemax wrote: post #34

I think these tools are the solution to the shortage of doctors, and will greatly improve performance by taking more parameters into account. Not sure though if a simple LLM can do that. (Shortage of doctors is a thing at least in DE and CH) Doctors study like 10 years to follow a decision tree based on patient background and symptoms. Especially in countries where education is harder to get by this can be useful, I…

If medicine is just following a decision tree why would we need LLMs to do it? Computers have been able to follow decision trees for 70 years or something.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#84

Post by [deleted] »

williamcotton wrote: post #61
monocultured wrote: post #30

Just the other day there were news about how many mistakes the AI-assisted journaling caused – wrong names, wrong diagnoses, typos (buksmärta -> kuksmärta which is hilarious but serious). Some of it is surely teething problems, but unless there is a robust check upon implementation it might just add another layer of inefficient new public management make-work to the system. https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/ai-journal…

Reading and doing minor edits is much less of a cognitive load than writing. The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question.

[deleted]

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#85

Post by _wire_ »

monocultured wrote: post #30

Just the other day there were news about how many mistakes the AI-assisted journaling caused – wrong names, wrong diagnoses, typos (buksmärta -> kuksmärta which is hilarious but serious). Some of it is surely teething problems, but unless there is a robust check upon implementation it might just add another layer of inefficient new public management make-work to the system. https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/ai-journal…

> Some of it is surely teething problems...

Just gonna adjust the temperature of your baby here, ok, now he should grow up just fine.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#86

Post by Pigalowda »

amkkma wrote: post #77
Pigalowda wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. That’s what we do. You hit the nail right on the head. I saunter down to my local US senators house and bribe him, every month or so. Then our group created a fund where we bribe the president of the United States. We organized with all the other groups in the area and bribed the pope. Next we are going to find you in your house and bribe you.

Why have residency spots shrunk per capita? Why do unmatched grads have to work at mcdonalds but NP's and PA's can practice with more latitude than some residents? (serious questions)

ACR for radiology is going on in Washington DC. Current staffing throughout the country is poor - over utilization of imaging and not enough radiologists. So we are lobbying for an increase in Medicare funding for residency positions (they are paid by Medicare). Also trying to get more J1 visas but that’s kind of dubious as we are taking physicians from another country who likely also needs physicians.

I have no idea why unmatched graduates are working at McDonald’s as you say. There’s always primary care positions open for the scramble last I checked. If they can’t get a spot there’s likely a real issue in their education or themselves. It’s a normal distribution of a population, MD or not.

I can’t speak to what NP and PA’s do - they have their own PACs and organizations. I know they want to increase their scope of practice and keep their liability low.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#87

Post by Zenzero »

cjk2 wrote: post #23
h_tbob wrote: post #7

I talked to a therapist who hated doing notes. So I proposed a solution: Use Microsoft's "seeing AI" to describe the children playing during "play therapy". Then have a camera take a picture every few minutes, and then have chatgpt come up with the story based on the pictures and transcript of the audio, transcribed with openai whisper. Business in a nutshell!

This is not really how therapists work. It’s how it looks like they work. This is a really big problem with the AI industry. People don’t know the domain well enough and assume it is a fit. Oh look, just throw this at it and done. Simples! Then you find that therapists, of the non quack variety at least, spend years working on how to remove bias from their assessment and learning subtle cues and indicators from their…

> This is a really big problem with the AI industry. People don’t know the domain well enough and assume it is a fit.

Yep. This is painfully obvious in the medical world right now. Too many tech-only people assuming they can understand a domain in a few weeks and then run a business in it.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#88

Post by Zenzero »

torhorway wrote: post #9

https://www.getfreed.ai/ has a free trial for an ai scribe if you're interested in trying one out. Saves an avg of 30min to 2hrs each day for some clinicians.

We don't need any more recommendations of AI scribes. There are already hundreds of them. That business opportunity lasted 5 minutes before becoming fully saturated.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#90

Post by chollida1 »

monocultured wrote: post #30

Just the other day there were news about how many mistakes the AI-assisted journaling caused – wrong names, wrong diagnoses, typos (buksmärta -> kuksmärta which is hilarious but serious). Some of it is surely teething problems, but unless there is a robust check upon implementation it might just add another layer of inefficient new public management make-work to the system. https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/ai-journal…

This seems very similar to self driving cars.

At the beginning they will be worse than humans and cause deaths that humans would have prevented while at the same time probably saving lives where a human would make a mistake.

But not far down the road they'll become much better than humans even if they do occasionally make a mistake and cause a death that a human wouldn't' have they'll save far more lives due to them not making the mistakes that humans do.

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