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Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

globalnews.ca

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Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#71

Post by karmakaze »

There's no mention of data privacy. Since AI Scribe[0] study is a run by OntarioMD, the digital technology arm of the Ontario Medical Association, it might be okay but it would be nice if it declared it.

From the AI Scribe link:

> This project is funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health and overseen by Ontario Health. The study is currently underway, with 150 primary care providers already selected from diverse demographic groups, technical backgrounds, and geographic areas. We are no longer accepting participants for the study. Results of the study will be shared later this year.

[0] https://www.ontariomd.ca/ai-scribe

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#72

Post by vt100 »

sevagh wrote: post #57
jilijeanlouis wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language detection in the presence of strong accents is, in my opinion, one of the most under-discussed biases in AI. Traditional ASR systems struggle when English (or any language) is spoken with a heavy accent, often confusing it with another language. Whisper is also affected by this issue, as you noted. The root of this problem lies in how language detection typically works. It relies on analyzing audio via MFCC…

>Traditional ASR systems struggle when English (or any language) is spoken with a heavy accent, often confusing it with another language. Humans also have difficulty with heavy accents, no?

True, but we can notice that that's the case, and then try to listen more carefully or ask for clarification

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#73

Post by [deleted] »

monocultured wrote: post #30

Just the other day there were news about how many mistakes the AI-assisted journaling caused – wrong names, wrong diagnoses, typos (buksmärta -> kuksmärta which is hilarious but serious). Some of it is surely teething problems, but unless there is a robust check upon implementation it might just add another layer of inefficient new public management make-work to the system. https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/ai-journal…

[deleted]

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#74

Post by [deleted] »

resource_waste wrote: post #62
tomfreemax wrote: post #34

I think these tools are the solution to the shortage of doctors, and will greatly improve performance by taking more parameters into account. Not sure though if a simple LLM can do that. (Shortage of doctors is a thing at least in DE and CH) Doctors study like 10 years to follow a decision tree based on patient background and symptoms. Especially in countries where education is harder to get by this can be useful, I…

The solution to the shortage of doctors is to stop letting doctors decide the supply of doctors. Its a special interest problem. Doctors organize, bribe/lobby politicians, limit licenses, make extra money/get more power, repeat. The excuse 'there isnt enough surgeries', is a chicken and egg problem. More doctors lower the cost, making surgery more reasonable and not necessarily a last ditch option. Not to mention, we…

[deleted]

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#75

Post by JadeNB »

resource_waste wrote: post #62
tomfreemax wrote: post #34

I think these tools are the solution to the shortage of doctors, and will greatly improve performance by taking more parameters into account. Not sure though if a simple LLM can do that. (Shortage of doctors is a thing at least in DE and CH) Doctors study like 10 years to follow a decision tree based on patient background and symptoms. Especially in countries where education is harder to get by this can be useful, I…

The solution to the shortage of doctors is to stop letting doctors decide the supply of doctors. Its a special interest problem. Doctors organize, bribe/lobby politicians, limit licenses, make extra money/get more power, repeat. The excuse 'there isnt enough surgeries', is a chicken and egg problem. More doctors lower the cost, making surgery more reasonable and not necessarily a last ditch option. Not to mention, we…

> The solution to the shortage of doctors is to stop letting doctors decide the supply of doctors.

I would certainly rather let decisions about certification of doctors be in the hands of doctors than anyone else. There's potential for a conflict of interest, but there's also expertise that isn't replicated anywhere else.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#76

Post by MichaelZuo »

ceejayoz wrote: post #64
williamcotton wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading and doing minor edits is much less of a cognitive load than writing. The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question.

> The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question. But that's what will inevitably happen at some point, when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes.

Isn't the vast majority of the world using computers without ECC memory already blindly trusting there are no bit flips causing silent corruption?

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#77

Post by amkkma »

Pigalowda wrote: post #68
resource_waste wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to the shortage of doctors is to stop letting doctors decide the supply of doctors. Its a special interest problem. Doctors organize, bribe/lobby politicians, limit licenses, make extra money/get more power, repeat. The excuse 'there isnt enough surgeries', is a chicken and egg problem. More doctors lower the cost, making surgery more reasonable and not necessarily a last ditch option. Not to mention, we…

Yep. That’s what we do. You hit the nail right on the head. I saunter down to my local US senators house and bribe him, every month or so. Then our group created a fund where we bribe the president of the United States. We organized with all the other groups in the area and bribed the pope. Next we are going to find you in your house and bribe you.

Why have residency spots shrunk per capita? Why do unmatched grads have to work at mcdonalds but NP's and PA's can practice with more latitude than some residents?

(serious questions)

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#78

Post by snoman »

ceejayoz wrote: post #64
williamcotton wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading and doing minor edits is much less of a cognitive load than writing. The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question.

> The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question. But that's what will inevitably happen at some point, when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes.

> …when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes.

Are you intentionally rubbing FUD on that or am I mis-reading you? I don’t think we need to wait to rely on technologies until they’ve achieved perfection - just when their mistakes are less frequent, less dangerous, or more predictable than human mistakes for the same task.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#79

Post by JadeNB »

cjk2 wrote: post #28
viraptor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one will be double checking. Yeah no, I can tell you from experience with a clinic that things are checked. Let's talk about the real issues and how to enforce double-checking for people who would ignore it. Hyperboly like that is not helpful. But, I wonder if those systems should randomly insert obvious markers to help here. "This has not been read." "Doctor was asleep at the wheel." "Derp derp derp." - like th…

You are really naive if you think checking anything is universally done to any standard anywhere on the planet. And writing it off as hyperbole is dismissive. I’ve literally been in a meeting with a doctor in the last week who wrote something down wrong on the damn computer in front of me. And I’m talking a specialist consultant. I’m sure if I didn’t mention it that the incorrect data would be checked over and over a…

> I’ve literally been in a meeting with a doctor in the last week who wrote something down wrong on the damn computer in front of me. And I’m talking a specialist consultant. I’m sure if I didn’t mention it that the incorrect data would be checked over and over again to make sure it was correctly incorrect….

Far be it from me to suggest that doctors aren't both fallible, and subject to arrogance that makes it harder for them to catch their mistakes—what highly skilled professionals are immune?—but "doctors make mistakes" is, while doubtless completely true, a very different claim from "doctors don't check things."

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#80

Post by williamcotton »

ceejayoz wrote: post #64
williamcotton wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading and doing minor edits is much less of a cognitive load than writing. The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question.

> The article does not suggest that doctors should blindly trust the SOAP note created by the tool in question. But that's what will inevitably happen at some point, when they get to the point of only rarely making big dangerous mistakes.

I don’t think we’re yet in a position where we can make claims about how inevitable certain outcomes are.

It is important to remind people that technology of any sort can be error prone and that human oversight should be relied on for any automated process, LLM based or not!

I work in the legal industry and every lawyer is aware of the guy who used ChatGPT to spit out non-existing case law!

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