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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#211

Post by blisterpeanuts »

hx833001 wrote: post #158
hedora wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

In the Boston area, I almost never lose power, at all, ever. One hour five years ago in an ice storm was an aberration. Something is very wrong in Cali.

We’re in the Boston area (west suburban town) and there are outages about every 4-5 months (Eversource). It’s quite annoying and I’m contemplating getting a whole house generator. My solar panels do nothing during an outage. Would love to get a couple of Tesla Powerwalls but too expensive and long waiting list.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#212

Post by implements »

nuancebydefault wrote: post #188
implements wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is 120v now, I believe - and many houses have a centre-tapped neutral supply [1] which means they actually can have 240v outlets in garages, workshops, utility rooms (etc) for high power devices. [1] https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/487836/how-d...

So this is different from a 3 phase system (N L1 L2 L3) with 120 degrees shift between the lines? It is instead basically a 2 phase system N L1 L2 with a 180 degree phase shift between L1 and L2? I was already confused with the 240 being mentioned somewhere in this thread... it becomes a bit clearer now.

Not an electrician, but yes (I think).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#213

Post by lumb63 »

LazyMans wrote: post #209
lumb63 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

It is not too cold in New York for heat pumps. With 20 year old technology yes, it would have required supplemental heat. Not anymore though, not until you get down around -25/-30f, at that point a resistive heater kicks in to assist.

Perhaps I worded my comment incorrectly. Yes, heat pumps can work in New York. But, a backup heat system in that climate would be prudent.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#214

Post by briantakita »

Why not ban, or at least seriously curtail the emissions of the organization responsible for the most toxic pollution & whose mission is literally to kill people, the military, instead? How about the multitude of other government agencies responsible for pollution?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#215

Post by devmunchies »

someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food?

I tried this and a neighbor called CalFire on me since its illegal when its not a "burn day".

It seems the solutions are to have:

- a 5 gallon propane tank in the garage

- a BBQ in the back yard

- your own batteries

- a generator (also useful for refrigeration)

I have about 20 gallons of gas in my garage that is good for my generator. I use the gas for my motorcycle so they get refreshed regularly.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#216

Post by topaz0 »

rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

There are many ways that outrage can be fake, and a variety of them apply to this situation. For one thing the conservative talking points were all about a sense that the feds were coming for your freedom, and not in any way about the merits or otherwise of being able to burn gas in the place you live. For another, this was being talked about as something that would impose a heavy burden on normal people, which is simply not supported by the facts, both because none of the plans that have been put forward involve forcing you to buy a new stove, and because most normal people already have electric stoves.

By the way, I don't know if you actually read or listened to that segment, but it makes clear that there is a real possibility that this could be regulated. Calling it "fake outrage" is not to say "they're making up the possibility that it could be regulated", but "they're blowing this (real) possibility out of proportion, ignoring the reasons it might be a good idea, and instead making up vague and manipulative reasons to object to it".

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#217

Post by nuancebydefault »

Symbiote wrote: post #182
nuancebydefault wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really amazing how people can talk about 200 amps as if it's nothing. We have a household installation of 40 amps (220) and last year there were months that cost 400 euros per month on electricity, and we are not heavy electricity users (we have no electric cloth dryer but have a small robot mower tho) It is almost like talking about 400HP cars/suvs, my 3 cylinder car is doing just fine at 84 kW max. Am I being…

American houses mostly have air conditioning, which is a huge load. We don't, and make better use of shades, awnings etc. European houses have had two or three decades of efficiency improvements made to everything, so we don't have the 5kW clothes dryers mentioned above.

Maybe this is a bit of a tangent but... shouldn't the world as a whole not be thinking about how to consume less in stead of obsessing with how to do the clean energy transition, without changing our habits a bit?

If you think about it, there is still plenty of room for optimizing our energy consumption.

The trend seems to be, replace the gasoline car not with a more fuel efficient one but rather with a car weighing almost double because it has to drag along a huge battery. Then replace all copper wires with double the section (copper mining, plastic production, tearing open perfect roads, ...)

Some ideas, not very far fetched I would say, combine a few of these will get us a long way:

Car pooling.

Electric bicycles.

Insulate your house better?

Taking turns with neighbours to do grocery shopping or bringing kids to school.

Try to repair stuff in stead of bying new.

Drying clothes with renewable wind energy. (a hanging rack)

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#218

Post by briantakita »

analog31 wrote: post #197
tomp wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity is also a centralized protocol, prone to catastrophic failures.

My gas heat goes down if electricity fails.

My gas stove can be connected to a gas tank which can be bought at a gas station for less than $30USD...

I can also purchase a propane heater from Home Depot or Lowes which can run off the same gas tanks for less than $200USD.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#219

Post by hedora »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #204
toxik wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean almost half SF owns and it's incredibly expensive?

If I read the criticisms correctly another 34% is homeless. But that 1% who owns can afford battery backups! :P

Circling back, I did say government services are reminiscent of the third world.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#220

Post by LazyMans »

lumb63 wrote: post #213
LazyMans wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not too cold in New York for heat pumps. With 20 year old technology yes, it would have required supplemental heat. Not anymore though, not until you get down around -25/-30f, at that point a resistive heater kicks in to assist.

Perhaps I worded my comment incorrectly. Yes, heat pumps can work in New York. But, a backup heat system in that climate would be prudent.

Auxiliary heat is built into a heat pump due to the need for a defrost cycle. The auxiliary is the backup.
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