Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#211

Post by scott_w » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:34 AM UTC

robin_reala wrote: post #187

scott_w wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda. Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

I thouroughly disagree with the practice and it’s morally repugnant, but hasn’t it just been court-tested and declared legal? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/10/uk-deportati...

No, it hasn’t. The court ruled that there’s nothing in U.K. law that bars specific flights but they didn’t rule on the legality of the policy itself.

This will be challenged at the court of appeal and will, eventually, be found a breach of international law.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#212

Post by hardlianotion » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:34 AM UTC

reillyse wrote: post #62

bestinterest wrote: post #19

I voted no last time round as I was not convinced on the economic side of things. Truthfully I'm still not convinced but I'm finding it hard to justify staying on the sinking ship of the UK. I'd rather fail as a country by our own decisions rather than the Scottish government always being able to point to Westminister for failure. I wish more world wide economists took time to write arguments for/against Scottish ind…

I think it's pretty easy to see examples of what Scotland could be. Have a look over the Irish sea and Ireland is doing very well for itself just a little over 100 years after independence ("full" independence obviously happening slightly later). It seems very obvious to me that when decisions are made locally they are made in the interests of the people who are local. Being on the periphery of a country is not ideal…

What is your criterion for poor and depressed country? Which are the comparator states, and what is your measure?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#213

Post by dale_glass » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:35 AM UTC

mnw21cam wrote: post #174

dale_glass wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

The reason for the "once in a generation" promise is that it is widely recognised that holding regular referenda on non-reversible decisions biases in favour of the non-reversible option. Let's imagine for example that genuinely 55% of the population want to remain part of the UK, and so remaining should win given a completely fair and accurate measure of the population's mood. However, every measurement varies for a…

I think that's much better dealt with a greater than 50% majority requirement than with any kind of timing requirement.

There's no reason to believe that a time requirement is a good protection against random politicians saying outrageous things. In fact it probably makes things worse because it gives obvious timelines for a campaign, so whenever the possibility opens up it pretty much guarantees all the outrageous politicians coming out of the woodwork.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#214

Post by ruune » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:35 AM UTC

chillydawg wrote: post #42

One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. T…

The border problem in Ireland was originally settled by a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK (until the UK found it didn't like what it agreed to anymore). I'm really not an expert on anything in that field, but a border between Scotland and the EU similar to the Northern Irish one should resolve that problem, making Scotland able to join the EU with an open border to the UK, no?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#215

Post by kmlx » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:35 AM UTC

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it.

i don't get this. to me, in 2022, all the countries of the UK are exactly the same. even Ireland in some aspects. same language, same history, more or less same laws. what's so special about Scotland, and what's their "different path" as compared to, let's say, Wales?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#216

Post by smcl » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:35 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #68

synu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not British or Scottish and have no skin in the game, but what is the harm in revoting if things seem to have changed? Either things didn’t change and everyone votes the same anyway, in which case it was a waste of time but reconfirms the status quo, or things actually are different and then you know and can act on it. Is there a special history or feature in UK democracy where things are only ever voted on one…

How often do you think independence referenda should be held?

Whenever there's a seismic enough event like, I dunno, leaving the European Union. That was a fairly effective scare-tactic used by the No campaign - you'll kicked out of the EU, you won't actually meet the criteria! These were pretty huge points that spooked a lot of people into not voting or voting No.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#217

Post by ChildOfChaos » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:35 AM UTC

Scotland is assuming the EU would want them, the only reason they where in Europe previously is because they where part of the UK and came as a package deal, without the rest of the UK, what does Scotland have? it's silly of them and it's all lead by the SNP who only care about independence at all costs, they ignore literally everything else and try and twist it into an independence issue.

SNP is causing Scotland far more harm than it's worth. Scotland doesn't need independence, it needs a better government for the whole of the UK, but with the SNP in power in Scotland, it makes it hard for the UK to have any other government but the tories.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#218

Post by dubeye » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:35 AM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #44

I still can't really see the case for Scottish independence except nationalism. Scotland has been part of the UK for more than 300 years. It is so tightly integrated into its society and market that a hard border would be rather painful. We have an example of the successor states of Austria-Hungary once the empire collapsed at the end of WWI. The economic situation of businesses that suddenly faced high tariffs acces…

The integration is part of the problem. Scotland ends up paying for things like HS2 and other London centric. English regions have same issue arguably, but Scotland alone has some hope to rectify.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#219

Post by cygx » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:36 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #127

cygx wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote? Leaving the EU?

As Scotland doesn't qualify to join the EU upon independence I'd have to say it's not. What else would be big enough?

Scotland doesn't qualify to join the EU upon independence

What would be the problem, assuming the independence gets recognized by London? The border situation? The deficit? Or is there some more fundamental problem I'm unaware of?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#220

Post by emptyfile » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:36 AM UTC

chillydawg wrote: post #42

One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. T…

Really, what makes you say that?

English is not my first language, but I personally thought the Irish border would've also been important in the Brexit referendum, considering you had a 30 year pseudo-civil war over that same border.

But the British people straight up ignored that little issue and here we are today at the precipice of a trade war and breaking up the Good Friday Agreement.

Compared to terrorism and civil war I would think the inconvenience of a Scottish border is an inconsequential problem.