Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

merriam-webster.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 338 posts

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#211

Post by SamBam »

tclancy wrote: post #144
stn8188 wrote: post #122

This topic was just recently discussed in what is probably my favorite non-engineering podcast, the History of English Podcast: https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/2021/10/30/episode-153-z...

Came here to say the same! I learned my name starts with a Th because it’s a thorn, not a th.

But a thorn simply changed to a th, and was pronounced the same, no? The pronunciations for Þ are [θ] and [ð], which are spelled as "th" in modern English. ([θ] is "th" as in "think" and [ð] is "th" as in "father).

So I'm unsure what you mean by "My 'Th' comes from 'thorn', not 'th'". The digraph "th" simply underwent a shift in Old English to spelling it with Þ, and then shifted back to "th".

(On a related note, though, it's always funny when "Ye olde shoppe" is pronounced differently that "the old shop." The "y" is simply a version of the thorn Þ, which was pronounced "th", and the ending "e"s were not pronounced.)

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#212

Post by TheFreim »

feintruled wrote: post #196
teilo wrote: post #87

What M-W attributes to "lexical meddlers" is almost certainly the result of the very common practice of borrowing latin words, and, when the word is in common use, abbreviating it. Originally the latin word would have always been pronounced "debitum" when read, even if abbreviated "debt." So the b certainly was pronounced. It just wasn't English to begin with. I work in old manuscripts, and this practice is very comm…

Always found it odd how in older books, names were so often abbreviated. William becomes Wm. or Edward to Edwd. for example. Seemed a strange practice as they were no stranger to verbosity in other respects.

Possibly higher cost per page made it more important to condense as much material while still retaining meaning.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#213

Post by xeromal »

kmm wrote: post #157
jtsiskin wrote: post #81

I may be crazy but I feel the ghostly presence of the “b”. For instance say “let let let let det” Now say “let let let let debt” Train a neural net on a few million samples of native English speakers reading these, and I think it could predict which prompt was read with >50% accuracy, even if each person was only shown one of the prompts.

It's very interesting people think so, and I've heard similar statements about the in "scent". Yet linguistically, it really doesn't hold up. Words are built up from phonemes, which undergo some alterations depending on their order and the context to become the phones (as in sounds, not telephones) which are actually pronounced. But this allophonic variation is never dependent on the spelling of the word†, and the wo…

Regarding scent, I definitely notice a difference in my Appalachian brain.

I feel like the s sound is more drawn out with the present.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#214

Post by micromacrofoot »

SamBam wrote: post #200
micromacrofoot wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also from New England and pronounce it differently, note that the difference is outrageously slight... "debt" is ever-so slightly longer than "det"... best I can place it is that "debt" is pronounced further back in my mouth and "det" is more toothy.

The thing is, "debt" and "det" can be pronounced very slightly differently without claiming that you're "pronouncing the b". A "b" sound is very distinct in English, involving a closing of the lips. If "debt" were instead spelled "deht" (and pronounced exactly the same), readers would claim that they "pronounce the h".

I wouldn't go as far to say that the "b" is fully pronounced, I agree, but it's almost like it starts to be pronounced... it kind of softens the "t"?

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#215

Post by xeromal »

SamBam wrote: post #207
housecarpenter wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's happened again and again with other words. "often" (older pronunciation: "offen"), "Anthony" (older pronunciation: "Antony") and "tortoise" (older pronunciation: "tortuss") are examples where the spelling pronunciation still hasn't totally won out. Words where the spelling pronunciation has reached fixation include "falcon" (older pronunciation: "fawken"), "reptile" (older pronunciation: "reptil"), "sphere" (old…

> "falcon" (older pronunciation: "fawken") I'm unsure of the difference between the old and new here. Does anyone pronounce the "l" in "falcon" by touching their tongue to the roof of their mouth? I pronounce the "l" similarly in "fault", which is kind of "fau-t". (If you're just referring to the "a" sound, like the a in "fall" vs "fat" then that's a different question, but I think quite regional.)

I have a hard l in my pronunciation of falcon. FAL-CON. I'm from Appalachia though so we tend to have drawn out pronunciations of everything. lol

Hell, I'm pretty sure captain falcon in smash brothers also has a hard L in "falcon punch!"

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#217

Post by xeromal »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #98
Scarblac wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard thing is that I read English the whole day, I don't often listen to it. And pronunciation is really unpredictable -- I once lost a bet because I couldn't believe that "finite" and "infinite" were pronounced so differently. I happen to know about "debt". But variants of it, like "indebted"? Who knows?

Wait until you hear someone say 'caveat'.

Verbiage is another one.

Most people I know say verbage instead of verb-ia-ge like the dictionary sometimes recommends.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#218

Post by Kiro »

SamBam wrote: post #207
housecarpenter wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's happened again and again with other words. "often" (older pronunciation: "offen"), "Anthony" (older pronunciation: "Antony") and "tortoise" (older pronunciation: "tortuss") are examples where the spelling pronunciation still hasn't totally won out. Words where the spelling pronunciation has reached fixation include "falcon" (older pronunciation: "fawken"), "reptile" (older pronunciation: "reptil"), "sphere" (old…

> "falcon" (older pronunciation: "fawken") I'm unsure of the difference between the old and new here. Does anyone pronounce the "l" in "falcon" by touching their tongue to the roof of their mouth? I pronounce the "l" similarly in "fault", which is kind of "fau-t". (If you're just referring to the "a" sound, like the a in "fall" vs "fat" then that's a different question, but I think quite regional.)

I pronounce both falcon and fault with a full L.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#219

Post by xeromal »

mhitza wrote: post #136
MathCodeLove wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you show phonetically how it sounds when you say those words? Im struggling to imagine what pronouncing the b would sound like

Non-native English speaker here. I don't know what the proper phonetical representation is for my pronunciation, but it sounds like 'kept', just with a b and a softer p.

Like Johnny Dept. hahah

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#220

Post by tsimionescu »

Scarblac wrote: post #88
laurent123456 wrote: post #18

English is spoken by more non-native speakers than native, and often they pronounce those letters since they don't know about it. With that in mind, I wonder if the language will eventually evolve to a point where the "b" of "debt" and other silent letters are no longer considered silent.

The hard thing is that I read English the whole day, I don't often listen to it. And pronunciation is really unpredictable -- I once lost a bet because I couldn't believe that "finite" and "infinite" were pronounced so differently. I happen to know about "debt". But variants of it, like "indebted"? Who knows?

It's funny that sometimes these mispronunciations can become "standardized" in non-native cultures. For example, almost all Romanian programmers will pronounce "integer" as in-teg-ur, not in-tee-ger, because that's closer to how the word would be read in Romanian (though, interestingly, not identical - the natural Romanian pronunciation given that spelling would be in-te-ger, with both 'e's pronounced like the 'a' in tap, and with a soft 'g', like in german), and it's not a word you often hear spoken aloud in movies or TV shows.
Post reply on HN