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Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

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Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#81
I may be crazy but I feel the ghostly presence of the “b”.

For instance say “let let let let det”

Now say “let let let let debt”

Train a neural net on a few million samples of native English speakers reading these, and I think it could predict which prompt was read with >50% accuracy, even if each person was only shown one of the prompts.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#82
post #23

Oh this is the place where I can finally rant about _aesthetic_, the favourite word for most music/art/movie content creators I've watched in the 2020s, one everybody mispronounces and reads it as "asthetic" which annoys me to no end, because it is totally WRONG. And I keep hearing it daily, which is maddening. "Ae" is supposed to be one sound, like the vowel sound in "egg". The "a" is silent. I'm terribly afraid eve…

In American English, unlike British English, œ and æ have mostly been collapsed into e. Compare encyclopaedia, foetus, faeces, diarrhoea, oestrogen. (But exceptions spelt the same way in both dialects: phoenix, oeconomics). If you'd like to encourage what you consider the correct pronunciation, I'd suggest favouring the spelling esthetic , which I do see but less commonly.

Perhaps interestingly, in some languages like German and Hungarian, (o)estrogen is written with just an ö and no e (Östrogen, ösztrögén).

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#83
post #58
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In American English, unlike British English, œ and æ have mostly been collapsed into e. Compare encyclopaedia, foetus, faeces, diarrhoea, oestrogen. (But exceptions spelt the same way in both dialects: phoenix, oeconomics). If you'd like to encourage what you consider the correct pronunciation, I'd suggest favouring the spelling esthetic , which I do see but less commonly.

In American English the word is spelled economics, not oeconomics. Not the same spelling at all.

It's also spelt that way in British English, which was my point.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#84
post #71

English is spoken by more non-native speakers than native, and often they pronounce those letters since they don't know about it. With that in mind, I wonder if the language will eventually evolve to a point where the "b" of "debt" and other silent letters are no longer considered silent.

Non native speaker here. I always pronounced the b in debt and in doubt. Learned something new today =)

Could you show phonetically how it sounds when you say those words? Im struggling to imagine what pronouncing the b would sound like

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#85
post #75

As a non-native english speaker (french), I was pronouncing those words wrong I guess: debt, doubt, plumber, subtle, indict, and island

Plumber is a new one for me. I always used to pronounce the 'b'. TIL!

“Lambda” doesn’t have a ‘b’ sound in it, either.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#86
post #54

As a non-native english speaker (french), I was pronouncing those words wrong I guess: debt, doubt, plumber, subtle, indict, and island

Were you aware that the "t" in "often" is traditionally not pronounced? (On the one hand it's a very common word, so someone learning English as a foreign language might have been taught the "correct" pronunciation. On the other hand, it's something that many native speakers of English, particularly younger and less well educated speakers, get "wrong" so teaching the "correct" pronunciation may be assigned a lower pr…

More often than not it is pronounced, though.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#87
What M-W attributes to "lexical meddlers" is almost certainly the result of the very common practice of borrowing latin words, and, when the word is in common use, abbreviating it. Originally the latin word would have always been pronounced "debitum" when read, even if abbreviated "debt." So the b certainly was pronounced. It just wasn't English to begin with.

I work in old manuscripts, and this practice is very common. It's not surprising that an abbreviation in common use ended up becoming a word of its own. Mix in the French pronunciation, and the modern spelling and pronunciation is explained without any "meddling" needed.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#88

English is spoken by more non-native speakers than native, and often they pronounce those letters since they don't know about it. With that in mind, I wonder if the language will eventually evolve to a point where the "b" of "debt" and other silent letters are no longer considered silent.

The hard thing is that I read English the whole day, I don't often listen to it. And pronunciation is really unpredictable -- I once lost a bet because I couldn't believe that "finite" and "infinite" were pronounced so differently.

I happen to know about "debt". But variants of it, like "indebted"? Who knows?

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#89
post #3

Nobody in some nobodyland. Majority in the world would. It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at.

Pronouncing the 'b' in debt is just about impossible for anyone with an intelligible English accent. You have to shove a vowel in there which would likely result in 'debit', a different but related word that could create potential subtle and disastrous misunderstandings. Even if it were non-native speaker saying 'debit' when they meant 'debt' to another non-native speaker. Maybe it'd be better to spell it 'degt'. Tho…

The only difficulty with "debt" from the perspective of English pronunciation is that B is voiced and T isn't. So you're right that "depped" or "debbed" would be more natural. But there's no need to add an epenthetic vowel.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#90
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is nothing there at all. If you look on a sonograph, "debt" and "det" sound exactly identical. Anybody who imagines English pronunciation should match spelling can't possibly know much of anything about English. Let's not get started on how many British pronounce "drawing".

Drawring lol. That r just magically appears after ahh or ohh, and almost everyone is shocked when you point it out.

"Droring" seems to me to be regional in British English. I hear it more in the North and in London.

As a child, I had elocution lessons from a scouser in Liverpool. She insisted on pronouncing the word "with" as "hwith", with the "th" hardened as in "thought", rather than softened as in "the". As a consequence I misspelled "with" for many years. Try to avoid taking elocution lessons from someone with a non-standard accent!

I enjoy regional pronunciations. I don't want them ruled to be somehow incorrect. But I deplore incorrect usage, such as "literally" to mean figuratively. M-W says that figuratively is a correct usage of literally, even though it means the exact opposite.

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