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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#211

Post by babesh »

zepto wrote: post #192
babesh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

They might think that it’s better for people to have access to their technology than not to, even if certain apps are unavailable. Would it be ethical for them to abandon all of their customers in Pakistan over this?

Yes it would be ethical to abandon their customers over this. Apparently religious freedom isn’t where you draw the line. What other rights are you willing to abandon?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#212

Post by jmull »

rcoveson wrote: post #198
jmull wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it. If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

And the (rather massive) flaw in yours is the idea that "fixing" and "not fixing" a problem are the only two possible outcomes. Would Apple and Google condemning this policy and refusing to comply "fix" the problem? Probably not. Is it the right thing to do? Of course! One certainly shouldn't help enforce an unjust law. This action lends a huge amount of credibility to an immoral policy. We're focusing on this mere "…

Ultimately "refusing to comply" means exiting the Pakistan market (and accepting arbitrarily harsh fines and criminal punishments for their employees until they do).

> One certainly shouldn't help enforce an unjust law.

The law is being enforce on them. Your moral responsibility for a situation is proportionate to your power over that situation. Apple and Google have some sway due to their size, but it seems to me it's limited. I suspect that in a direct sense they largely suck money out of the Pakistani economy rather than pump money in, which really blunts their influence.

> Our laws govern those companies.

In Pakistan, Pakistani laws govern those companies. The US (and other nations) could impose economic sanctions on Pakistan for this (which would affect the business Apple, Google and others from do there). If that's what you want then you need to be lobbying your politicians.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#213

Post by djrogers »

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though.

A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#214

Post by jmull »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #167
jmull wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it. If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

Apple and Google can't fix Pakistan. They can control how they respond, though. And how they responded looks pretty spineless.

What do you think they should do?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#215

Post by babesh »

shadowgovt wrote: post #181
babesh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

it's more that their morality includes compliance with the laws of the states they operate in. It always has, and they will buck those laws on extremely rare occasions, usually when they believe they are seeing a mis-implementation of the laws, and (when outside the US) usually by ceasing to do business in the territory (see: Google's pullback from China). None of what we're seeing in Pakistan right now is new for te…

That is a load of bullshit. Google tried to get back into China (see Project Dragonfly). Did China change the offending laws in the meantime? How are those Tianamen Square searches doing in China on those Apple phones?

What kind of person or entity hides under the pretense that it’s the law and you have to always follow it? Nuremberg trials defense? Separate but equal? South Africa anyone?

All I have to do is to do is change the law and then suddenly it’s moral. Slavery moral one day, not moral the next. Moral on this side of the line but not moral on the other. One day the emperor says that red hats are against the law, the next day you can only wear red hats. Wait, 1984!

A morality grounded on adherence to the law is no morality at all. It only lets the levers of law be pulled by those with other ideas on morality or the lack thereof.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#216

Post by AlexandrB »

jmull wrote: post #135
FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

Sigh The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google. An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. There are arguments against gatekeepi…

The problem lies with Pakistan and Apple and Google. If the apps in question could be installed without an App Store blocking them would be much harder. The entity creating the apps does not seem to have a commercial presence in Pakistan and the Pakistani government would have no jurisdiction over their actions. Having large commercial intermediaries with money on the line is really convenient when you want to get something censored.

From the article:

> The PTA also ordered shut a US-based Ahmadi site, TrueIslam.com, threatening its administrators with criminal charges that carry a $3 million fine. The decision may not be enforceable, since the people who run the site, including Zafar, do not live in Pakistan.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#217

Post by jfk13 »

jshevek wrote: post #180
shadowgovt wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People disagree on the ethical principle of free speech, and arguing that Google or Apple have a duty to that ethical principle begs the question of the ethical principle itself.

Begging the question is a specific logical fallacy which does not apply in this case.

And to insist that "begging the question" refers to a specific logical fallacy is to ignore well-established present-day vernacular usage.

In everyday discussion, pedantry rarely helps. In this case, it was pretty obvious what was meant.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/beg-the-questi...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#218

Post by readams »

d1zzy wrote: post #207
username90 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

How come would that not happen? Apps come from somewhere and they are installed on someone's platform. The government can simply ask the provider of those apps to stop providing them and/or the provider of the platform to stop allowing for them to be installed. Your only choice then is to comply or stop doing business in that country. So the only reasonable complaint I could see against these companies now is "maybe…

If the provider of the app has no footprint in the oppressive country, and Apple and Google have control because they have open platforms, then the apps will continue to be available.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#219

Post by Layke1123 »

1024core wrote: post #200

This only applies to Pakistan. It isn't Google's or Apple's place to fix Pakistan's problems. A company has to obey the laws of the country they are operating in. Those who oppose this should consider the alternative. Suppose there's an app that is openly racist and discriminates against POCs, which is against the law in the US. Since it is violating the law, shouldn't it be taken down?

Absolutely. Free speech means your default position is that you can say whatever you want, and then the court can determine if it violates the spirit of the law.

The flip side to this is that you can absolutely be given a sentence in other countries without free speech and have to litigate or violently overthrow the regime that denies you due process.

But in neither society should something like racism be tolerated. There is no good that can come from saying white people are better than black people simple because they are black. It is not a useful metric at all when evaluating people. MLK really said it best. Do not judge based on the color of his children's skin but the content of their character.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#220

Post by babesh »

zepto wrote: post #192
babesh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

They might think that it’s better for people to have access to their technology than not to, even if certain apps are unavailable. Would it be ethical for them to abandon all of their customers in Pakistan over this?

This is the same exact argument made roughly 30 years ago with South Africa and apartheid.
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