Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

buzzfeednews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 515 posts

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#181

Post by shadowgovt »

babesh wrote: post #172
avianlyric wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is your point?

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

it's more that their morality includes compliance with the laws of the states they operate in. It always has, and they will buck those laws on extremely rare occasions, usually when they believe they are seeing a mis-implementation of the laws, and (when outside the US) usually by ceasing to do business in the territory (see: Google's pullback from China).

None of what we're seeing in Pakistan right now is new for tech company SOP. Google Maps shows different borders depending on the location of the originating query. Twitter masks certain tweets for users in Germany because some speech that's legal in the US is illegal in Germany and the penalties are harsh for propagating it.

It's a big world, and the US doesn't have a monopoly on law or ethics in the international community.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#182

Post by gataca »

sofixa wrote: post #84
gataca wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> allowing you to focus on potential future crimes of Israel You mean active current and historical crimes of Israel, surely? Two wrongs don't make a right, and many people and countries discriminating or massacring Jews historically doesn't excuse Israel's apartheid state, crimes against humanity and international law violations.

> You mean active current and historical crimes of Israel, surely?

I was responding to OP's precog-like prediction of future crimes, so no.

> Israel's apartheid state, crimes against humanity and international law violations.

Overuse of these words/concepts has turned them into buzzwords and has steadily devalued them. Works well for virtue-signaling online though.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#183

Post by jshevek »

vmception wrote: post #179
jshevek wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no free speech analogy to countries with a different constitution You use the phrase "free speech" as if it referred only to a legal requirement, and not also an ethical principle.

Astute observation. Try not to shoehorn something that has no consensus into every legal issue. The entire discussion to me is as simple as I stated.

> Try not to shoehorn something that has no consensus into every legal issue.

Issues can be moral, legal, neither, and both. Presuming an issue is strictly legal can preemptively invalidate efforts to address moral aspects of the issue.

If the moral aspect of an issue has universal consensus, there is little to discuss. This criteria shuts down meaningful discussion of ethics.

Edit: Laws follow from values, especially in democracies. As values change, eventually laws change, including the constitution. The gp was raising ethical considerations for us to consider. To me it seems like you discount and trivialize these concerns.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#184

Post by cambalache »

sofixa wrote: post #89
zo1 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments are wisening up. Tinfoil hat me says they're replacing "blasphemy laws" with more politically palatable yet more vague "Hate speech" laws that are ridiculously loose and can be applied how they see fit, including prosecuting blasphemy-like criticism of Religion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_by_country#So...

I don't see anything ridiculously loose about that law: > No person may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words based on one or more of the prohibited grounds, against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be hurtful,be harmful or to incite harm, promote or propagate hatred. [65] > The "prohibited grounds" include race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, eth…

"I think many religious Jewish groups fuel the Zionist sentiment in the Israeli government exacerbating the conflict with Palestine. Their influence must be curtailed"

Boom!, 10 months in jail for antisemitism.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#185

Post by jshevek »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #171
jshevek wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform This fits the definition of censorship. Maybe you meant to say this isn't governmental censorship? Edit: Poe's law

I think you miss gadders' point. This was the response when private companies "censored" the extreme right in response to January 6. So, is it right in one case and wrong in the other? If so, why?

Yes, Poe's law.

Elsewhere you say:

> explains some of the change in tone here on HN

2020 was the year of HN's eternal September, facilitated by the behavior changes brought by c19. If you can recommend a similar forum that still retains a culture of objectivity I would be very interested.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#186

Post by vmception »

jshevek wrote: post #183
vmception wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Astute observation. Try not to shoehorn something that has no consensus into every legal issue. The entire discussion to me is as simple as I stated.

> Try not to shoehorn something that has no consensus into every legal issue. Issues can be moral, legal, neither, and both. Presuming an issue is strictly legal can preemptively invalidate efforts to address moral aspects of the issue. If the moral aspect of an issue has universal consensus, there is little to discuss. This criteria shuts down meaningful discussion of ethics. Edit: Laws follow from values, especiall…

Okay fine.

The person I responded to made arguments that were primarily about hypothetical legal capabilities of western countries, in a bid to make us empathize on an ethical issue. Their argument failed because their analogies would have actually have to look at what legal route each country individually chose to accomplish their censorship. Which means looking at how Pakistan accomplished this censorship first. Pakistan has a constitution that supports this and requires the rulers to be arbiters of what is and isnt represented as muslim.

The reality then is that I did not comment on an ethical issue at all because my comment was not about that and won’t be, because there is no mystery about the legal authority of Pakistan to do that and the path to consensus of changing that is so high (big assumption that I would care to do so or care about that discussion) that it is far outside of the scope of this particular discussion.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#187

Post by passivate »

username90 wrote: post #150
jmull wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it. If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious problems in other countries? If so, I think wanting companies to engineer social behavior in other countries is a dangerous path bordering on the unethical (IMO).

But having said all that, whats stopping a country from simply blocking their hosting servers? Ultimately, the app has to be downloaded from somewhere. Okay, so then you move to a P2P system, so then the get their ISPs to block that,etc ,etc. It's just whack-a-mole.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#188

Post by shadowgovt »

gostsamo wrote: post #5
jacknews wrote: post #2

Of course I disagree with religious or any other intolerance, but, if you want to do business in Pakistan, you have to follow their rules. It isn't a case of 'caving to pressure', but of 'complying with the law', since the apps are available in other countries, just not in Pakistan, where they are deemed blasphemous, according to their laws.

There are basic human rights, that when breached by a law, make the law a crime. 2010 Google left China for those reasons. Much have changed since then.

It's always worth remembering: Google couched leaving China in 2010 in humanitarian / ethical terms, but the reason they left was extremely clear: they got hacked internally by Chinese agents using physical access to the intranet. While Google got their security house in order, the most prudent course of action to protect their own company (including their employees) was to cut that physical access.

Google restarted business in China around the same time it was able to bring the BeyondCorp initiative online.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#189

Post by dang »

Arun2009 wrote: post #76
fmajid wrote: post #27

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.

Please don't cross into religious flamewar in HN comments. Your comment would be fine without the last sentence.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#190

Post by zepto »

sk5t wrote: post #177
username90 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

Just as we have laws that prevent US organizations from giving or taking bribes even in countries where bribes are legal (FCPA), and US laws prevent US individuals from overseas sex tourism which would be illegal on US soil, what prevents us from requiring US organizations not to participate in religious oppression, child exploitation, and other such acts?

Nothing. That would be a good way to solve this problem.
Post reply on HN