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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#81

Post by sofixa »

gostsamo wrote: post #53
adventured wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…

I'll say it here again: There are basic human rights, that when breached by a law, make the law a crime.

Even the definition of basic human rights is disputed. Just check the topics of abortion, access to internet, property, religious freedoms, sexual orientation. In some countries some of those are defined as basic human rights, in others some are outright banned.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#82

Post by simion314 »

lupire wrote: post #42
simion314 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if the users could side load applications then even if the government would demand the giants to remove X app or book the user could find a way. People were listening to forbidden radio stations in secret and this was possible because DRM did not exist on the radio and TV equipment.

Google allowed side loading these apps, right? At least for now?

Yes, Android allows side loading but in fact it depends on the company that makes the device. Apple makes the OS and the only iOS devices so they control everything.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#84

Post by sofixa »

gataca wrote: post #65
DSingularity wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I agree with you that the sovereignty of people should be respected. But shouldnt we draw some line? Say Israel makes a law that Arab citizens should be tracked through a digital symbol to identify that they are of the non-Jewish subset of the population — should US companies comply? And I specifically choose Israel because it has a history of discrimination against its Arab population.

[flagged]

> allowing you to focus on potential future crimes of Israel

You mean active current and historical crimes of Israel, surely?

Two wrongs don't make a right, and many people and countries discriminating or massacring Jews historically doesn't excuse Israel's apartheid state, crimes against humanity and international law violations.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#85

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

I wouldn’t say that I’m defending the practice. It’s a bad decision and I wish Pakistan wouldn’t censor these apps.

But it really does seem like the responsibility lies with Pakistan here. The article suggests Google’s trying hard to keep these apps up, and has indeed kept some up despite government pressure. At the end of the day, their options to resist legal demands are limited, and it’s hard for me to see an argument that this relatively small instance of censorship is so important they should shut down operations in Pakistan over it.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#86

Post by margalabargala »

Arun2009 wrote: post #76
fmajid wrote: post #27

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of Islam.

The whole issue seems to be an internal argument among the Muslim community- so Islam is a necessary precondition for this problem, as it's the subject matter of the issue, but not the causative agent.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#87

Post by sofixa »

EGreg wrote: post #29
FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

Yes, we keep saying this. But the alternative is right in front of us... it is the open Web and related technologies. If someone was hosting a website outside of Pakistan, it would be much harder to take down than just petitioning Google or Apple. Wordpress powers 40% of all such websites. But for Web 2.0 where are the open source alternatives? Discourse? We need something that can handle chatrooms, videoconferencing…

> someone was hosting a website outside of Pakistan, it would be much harder to take down than just petitioning Google or Apple

ISPs are still in Pakistan, so if the country wants, there are a myriad of ways to block a website. Most are preventable, but for the majority of people the site will be effectively blocked.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#88

Post by dahfizz »

patwolfe wrote: post #55
wtf_is_up wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slactivism is fun when you can use it to enhance your social capital, but doing the actual work is a chore.

I think once they got to the point of forming an actual union (which, at Google, has a historical risk to job security) the "slactivism" potshots became inarguably unwarranted.

They call themselves a union, but until they start doing union things, some skepticism is warranted.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#89

Post by sofixa »

zo1 wrote: post #33
peteri wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Formally abolished in England and Wales in 2008. Still on the statute books for Scotland and Northern Ireland. Although a lot of anti-racist hate speech stuff could be used for the same effect in England and Wales.

Governments are wisening up. Tinfoil hat me says they're replacing "blasphemy laws" with more politically palatable yet more vague "Hate speech" laws that are ridiculously loose and can be applied how they see fit, including prosecuting blasphemy-like criticism of Religion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_by_country#So...

I don't see anything ridiculously loose about that law:

> No person may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words based on one or more of the prohibited grounds, against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be hurtful,be harmful or to incite harm, promote or propagate hatred. [65]

> The "prohibited grounds" include race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#90

Post by kmeisthax »

jariel wrote: post #69
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

"These may seem fair to you" I don't see 'seeming fair' to most people. This is just yet another example of Google and Apple's monopoly preferences being leveraged by entities that have more leverage than them. It has to stop. Free The Apps.

The PTA isn't stopping at walled-garden App Stores; Google and Apple are just one of the few countries large enough to have a physical presence Pakistan can threaten. They also threatened a handful of US-based web hosts who are basically prohibited from seeing their families until they censor this sect.

(And yes, I'm using the word 'censor' here. It is entirely appropriate under even the narrowest definitions of the word, as the decision to remove content was made with the force of law. The US has similar provisions known as the 'state actors doctrine'.)

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