Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#211

Post by flyinglizard » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:05 AM UTC

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #156

briandear wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However wage arbitrage is specifically against the intent and the letter of visa programs. It’s to fill actual shortages. If you can’t find a Python dev at $70k per year but you could find one at $100k per year, that isn’t a “shortage” — yet such “shortages” are what gets used to rationalize H1-B expansion.

I'd like to add that part of the factor that's driving down wages is the fact that workers from countries with cheap/subsidized higher-level education can get a bachelor's degree for under $5000 (total), meaning that a student from a foreign country getting a master's degree from an American university graduates with around 1/3 the total debt that an American student would. That advantage makes it more feasible to ta…

That also means other countries subsidize the education of the US workforce, which from US perspective is not a bad thing.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#212

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:07 AM UTC

hayksaakian wrote: post #123

mvc wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech Cry me a river. Do you also complain about internal migration towards cities like San Francisco and Boston. It's the same principal at play. Tech workers from all over the US flock to cities where the wealth is. Tech workers from around the world flock to the US because that's where the wealth i…

The difference between a fair market where immigrants can compete for American jobs and the current state of affairs is massive. The Visa lottery system keeps workers locked into lower paying wages that what they could get as full citizens under the same exact circumstances. Big tech can leverage deportation against you because you can't "walk away" from a job offer with as low risk as an American could. "No immigrat…

I wouldn't say 100% immigration restrictions would be better. Certainly not for any immigrant.

The H1B cap is ridicolously low. 65.000 a year for a country that has 350 million people, in a 7 billion world.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#213

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:09 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #50

hart_russell wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but you're not addressing the point that immigrant workers can be paid less for the same work.

That is irrelevant. They get paid more compared to what immigrants would get in their home countries. And if you had to pay them as much then they would lose the edge during hiring - it is part of why they are also chosen.

Thats not how salaries are negotiated. Any worker picks the job that suits him best. If you have A and B in the US, and C in your home country, you will pick the best of the three, not "not C".

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#214

Post by baddox » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:11 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #196

baddox wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the “skin in the game” argument at all. How is it worse for a citizen than a non-citizen if the social fabric of the state breaks down? Besides, this seems like a bizarre argument for why citizens should have “first dibs” at jobs. What does that have anything to do with a doomsday scenario? As for the necessity of making distinctions regarding obligations to the state, how is that relevant, particu…

>I don’t understand the “skin in the game” argument at all. How is it worse for a citizen than a non-citizen if the social fabric of the state breaks down? Because the "inhabitants" can just go home, while the Citizens are stuck here - this is their home. >Besides, this seems like a bizarre argument for why citizens should have “first dibs” at jobs. This is literally what a sovereign government is supposed to do: pro…

> Because the "inhabitants" can just go home, while the Citizens are stuck here - this is their home.

I highly doubt that most immigrants who come to the US to work are buying and maintaining a second home, and are instead making America their new home.

> This is literally what a sovereign government is supposed to do: provide for and prioritize the needs of it's citizens.

This is precisely the claim I am disputing and looking for some justification. “Most people believe this” is not a very good justification for anything, so I’m challenging people to question why they believe it and why it’s a reasonable desire. “High school textbooks say that governments should do this” is also not a great justification in my opinion.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#215

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:11 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #28

fjsolwmv wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.

That's great except that H1B is not supposed to be used to suppress domestic salaries or replace existing workers (Disney IT). This is openly happening and the government won't do anything to correct this illegal behavior. It's 2018 and Trump's executive order has amounted to nothing. Consider these 2016 numbers from USCIS [1] (Can't find 2017 data. Wonder why). All of the Indian body shops pay sub-$90K as their aver…

The effect on wages is inconclusive based on the salary of the people that come in. Its possible the 90k range puts more downward pressure on salaries than the 150 that come about. They all have effects on wages but also create value for the whole. The more immigrants come the more total salaries paid for the workers is, even if the mean is lower.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#216

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:13 AM UTC

lvspiff wrote: post #9

Sad thing is - if this is going on at Cisco imagine what goes on in the farm fields, the restaurants, the hotels, and the rest of the lowest paying jobs in this country. If it takes YEARS to build a case against giant company how many little guys are getting away with it on a daily basis?

Oh god, how many burritos have you ate that were made by an ILLEGAL!

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#217

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:13 AM UTC

lvspiff wrote: post #7

yanslookup wrote: post #2

This is more common than you'd imagine and it's telling that a company the size of Cisco can't hide it. Between OPT and H1B the relationship between tech and immigration is grim.

Its like the secret everyone knows, but nobody wants to do anything about unless they get caught. Even then when they get caught the worst punishment they will get is a days profit MAYBE. Its easier to pay a $100 million fine every 10 years than to have to pay reasonable wages.

It is truly a wonder of the free market that if fights against the discrimination of immigration laws.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#218

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:14 AM UTC

jeremyjh wrote: post #80

cc-d wrote: post #75

Cap minimum pay to the equivalent of $150k yearly and watch as the h1b visa program magically starts working as intended. The solution is not complicated. With the anti-immigrant rhetoric pouring from the current administration, I'm surprised that blatant h1b visa abuse is still rampant.

There is no need for an artificial cap, just make it a bidding system. The companies bid for how many workers at salary $X. Highest bids are awarded the visas. Problem solved.

Great way to puff up signin bonus without stock, vacation or health plans to move up the list.

How about remove the quota limit and put a minimum salary of 60k?

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#219

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:15 AM UTC

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #148

briandear wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not greed, that’s smart business. Why would you pay more for something if you didn’t have to? Is it greedy to take advantage of a sale on fruit at the grocery store rather than paying full price? The problem is visa law, not companies following that law.

Might be a controversial opinion, but I think we as humans have lost sight of the ball when we start letting capitalism drive ethics.

And what ethics tell you that you should have the right to bar other people from working with other people?

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#220

Post by gnahckire » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 6:18 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #25

> Cisco, which reported $43 billion in revenue last year, employs more than 73,000 workers at its headquarters in San Jose, Calif., and international offices. The company employed nearly 1,600 visa holders last year. If this number seems low, thats because it is. They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't show up.…

> They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't show up.

Used to work there. I was always surprised at the volume of contractors and contracting companies were embedded within the ranks.