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Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

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Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#211
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean... britain wouldn't be the ones policing the border, it would be turkey. You were clearly talking about the Turkish border in your previous comment. Entering Turkey doesn't make you an EU citizen, and the UK, not being part of Schengen and having no land border to the mainland, has lots of freedom to police it's own borders against non-EU nationals trying to enter from other EU countries. Turkish (then EU) c…

Ah, because the UK has its own internal border where they would verify citizenship. I forgot about that. So you're saying that, if an Iraqi national is allowed entry into a hypothetical Turkey in the EU -- even if Turkey were to have open borders with the rest of the EU -- that same person would have to go through UK border security separately still.

Yes.

Legally entering an EU country doesn't grant you the right to visit others, and the UK is in a geographically fairly unique position to really make sure people don't slip through.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#213

I'm trying to understand the article's premise. Is all political advertising immoral? Is it something about the way the ads were distributed that make them immoral? Is it just immoral because the politics itself was "wrong"?

The article itself is political advertising.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#214
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is a LOT of uk case law /precedent on this ie 2/3 or even 75% to make changes to the rules or organisation or to pass some types of motions at company AGM's is common. Personally I think the CBI and Directors Institute lost the plot and let a few "bad apples" fuck the economy up - should have done what the TUC did in the 50's

I don't think there's any precedent for requiring such a supermajority in this case. Actually joining the EU required the support of 0% of the population in a referendum - there was no referendum on joining, the 1975 referendum was merely on whether we should remain in. The same arguments against leaving were made back then too, and if leave had won there'd probably have been exactly the same kind of pressure against…

Citrine and any parliamentary based system (even the local allotment society ) plus the fact that every listed UK company AGM follows the same 2/3 /3/4 rule for major votes

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#215
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The leave campaigns were recently found to be in violation of election law, so no, this isn't just a "moral" issue: > the Electoral Commission found that the youth-focused campaign, BeLeave, had been joint-working with the official Vote Leave campaign — yet the pair had not jointly declared spending thereby enabling the official campaign to overspend by almost half a million pounds. And that overspend went straight t…

> It used to be that all of your advertising was public, so it was possible to see what promises are being made, what kind of terminology is being used, etc. etc. In the Facebook era you can hyper-target your ads to only show to a small subsection of people, without anyone knowing what you're saying. If say, before the 1990s, a national candidate sent out targeted mailers to some little town in flyover country, no on…

No, I don’t suppose we’re in a similar situation. In your example, the mailer would leave a paper trail or more importantly one would expect such a mailer to disclose who’s sending them.

Secondly, the scale and efficiency with which one could target was rather limited. Specifically, the candidate would have a hard time not only “targeting” the right audience but also find it rather impossible to customize the content of the mailer to individual recipient.

It is not based on the same principle - one involves human actors and associated inefficiencies and “unscalability” while other involves mindless robots over zealously bombarding “targeted” audience with deception and lies.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A vote result arising in the context of a great many voters having been persuaded by a sophisticated propaganda attack consisting of lies, misrepresentations, and half-truths, where the attack originated from a foreign power aiming to create chaos and confusion among its enemies is not a fair vote and should not be given the legitimacy that a fair vote deserves.

So your claim is that people shouldn't be allowed to persuade others to agree with them politically? Don't you see something wrong with that thought?

That’s obviously not the claim and it’s churlish to imply so.

“Fairness” in a democratic system is a pretty messy concept. A “fair” vote might require rules (like controlling spending, foreign influence, and truthfulness), it might require clear criteria and outcomes, or it might require a well-informed population.

The UK’s Brexit referendum was a perfect example of how not to run a referendum:

- Billed as advisory but clearly not

- Electoral laws broken

- Shady foreign influence

- No definition of what the outcome of one result would be

- No success criteria beyond a simple majority (like requiring consent from all constituent countries)

- A vote on an extremely technical issue poorly understood by most of the population

I imagine this will be used as a textbook example of a terrible political event for decades.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#217
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim that Leave overspent or had dodgy funding doesn't hold water: the rules are quite clearly being abused or twisted to try and nail the Leave campaign, just like the government used every other resource at its disposal to try and win. In particular the government spent millions of pounds - more than the entire allowed budget of the remain campaign - on a giant mailshot to the entire country arguing the case t…

I really don't understand how you could describe it as "abuse" to raise questions about the DUP case; are you challenging any of the facts raised in the article - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 ? Btw. the Leave campaign also received public funding both in direct cash and to cover the costs of public mailings for example. It's all very well saying the spending limits should be scrapped but they…

My point is that whatever rules were in place for the referendum clearly didn't work, they were simply ignored or worked around by the government by e.g. huge spending before the limiting period began. If one side clearly doesn't care about the rules at all and they aren't even enforced, then attempting to enforce them on the other side obviously opens up all sorts of suspicions of bias.

I hadn't seen the BBC article you link to, but it looks like exactly what I mean. Someone who made a donation to the Leave campaign shipped some tyres to India in 2009? OK, how does that compare to Remain using the entire resources of the civil service in its attempt to win? It doesn't at all, the sums involved are trivial in comparison.

Regarding the euromyths site, do you really find the newspaper's protrayal of EU foreign aid/development fund spending to be honest?

Yes - what have they said that's false? The EU's "rebuttal" doesn't even claim the newspapers are wrong about anything. They just claim it's perfectly reasonable spending instead.

Your last paragraph misses the point entirely I'm afraid. I don't care about foreign aid myself. We were talking about the euromyths site. This particular story is interesting because it shows that the EU is willing to lie to you in order to undermine the press.

One of the purposes of the press is to hold government to account. Publicising spending that looks wasteful is a key part of that. This is civics 101. Does the British government complain that the press is "lying" when they question government spending? No, it doesn't, because it's run by people who know that this is part of the job of the press. Only the EU complains about the press doing their job and attacks them by asserting they're peddling "myths".

But hey, if you want another dodgy Euromyths post, here it is:

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/the-eu-is-a-supporter-o...

This is about EU plans to eliminate per-region movie licensing. The EU's response adds nothing to the Independent's article, which is basically a selection of quotes from British movie producers saying they depend on per-region licensing to fund indy/arthouse movies, and if they couldn't do that anymore they feel they wouldn't be able to fund these movies.

Now, maybe these producers are all wrong, maybe they're right, I am not an expert in movie financing so I don't know. But clearly there are some who feel this way. The "myths" response simply re-iterates the EU's position that it'll all be peachy and wonderful. The truth of the underlying article isn't challenged, the EU Commission is just saying they disagree.

Lots of the articles are like that.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's fine for a government to respond to press stories in a candid way and defend themselves. But the EU oversteps the line wildly here, by claiming they're revealing systematic lying by the British press, when just clicking through posts shows they often can't identify anything false about the stories. They just find them inconvenient.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#218
post #78

These laws, though well intentioned, seem to sometimes struggle in the modern context. In this case, President Obama flew over to London in April 2016 and advocated very publicly, that Britain should remain in the EU. This act by a foreign leader was converted into headlines, videos, tweets, etc. which were shared roughly a bajillion times. President Obama is an extremely popular man. In any list of the world's most…

Except it's really easy to discount his statement if you're so inclined, because you know who it's coming from. A lot of these Facebook ads had no information about the source.

An ad is by default the same kind of statement. The source is necessarily someone who has a vested interest, like President Obama. Why will a neutral person pay for an ad?

There are plenty of mega corporations whose interest span the entire world, so those are all technically foreign agents.

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