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Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

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Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#201

Post by repolfx »

detaro wrote: post #122
rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "xenophobic" about those three images? Turkey is currently undergoing a very public internal war between western secularism and Islamic fundamentalism. Why would a western country want to enter into democratic union with such a country at this stage? Not every judgment regarding other countries is "xenophobic." Imagine if Alabama or Mississippi were trying to join the U.S. today. Would it be "xenophobic" of C…

> Why would a western country want to enter into democratic union with such a country at this stage? It wouldn't, and that's why claiming "turkey is joining the EU" is highly misleading. Turkey is far from becoming an EU member, a process which was started in "brighter times", and the UK has control over that status ever changing.

the UK has control over that

You have to remember that a key part of the reason Leave won is that British people don't trust their leaders to be honest or consistent on the topic of the EU.

Politicians across Europe, not just the UK, have a long established track record of promising voters they'll reject further integration or power transfers to Brussels and then turning around and doing exactly that. As the Brexit referendum has helpfully revealed this is because the civil service and many MPs don't actually believe anyone should be allowed to vote against the EU and are busy trying to block implementation of leaving.

Given that, the fact that the UK could theoretically veto Turkey's membership is irrelevant. Politicians can't be trusted to use it. Leaving completely is the only sure way to stop them doing whatever Brussels asks for.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#202

Post by growlist »

untog wrote: post #185
growlist wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of like Goliath saying to David 'why couldn't we have a fair fight!', conveniently ignoring his massive advantage. You've lost me entirely with your last comments. Opinion polls showed a narrow Remain victory - that's a matter of fact - and that's the very definition of favourite. To say the result changes the favourite after the fact is frankly bonkers. And portraying themselves as a victimized minority? I…

Wait, two posts ago you were the one complaining about the lack of fair fight, and now you're using it in an analogy where the losing side is complaining about it despite their advantage. It's no wonder I don't know what you're talking about, you very clearly don't either. I have no idea what Guardian piece you're referring to. I'd certainly never claim to be the only person capable of formulating such an obvious con…

Please could you try to be more civil? I haven't attacked you personally. I note you are also switching around whereas I am staying on topic i.e. my original post.

Here's what I said originally:

Point is, citing the overspending by Leave as some massive deal looks a bit rich when virtually the entire establishment, business and media conspired to sway the result towards Remain.

So Remain are Goliath, complaining that David used a catapult (overspend) when David should have just taken his punishment from Goliath's big clunking fists (coordinated conspiracy from powers that be to scare the public into voting Remain). All clear now? It's Remain that are playing the victim which as I said, given Remain's overwhelming advantages in the campaign and apparent incompetence in convincing the public despite that advantage, attracts ridicule. This is all I said. I'm not sure how I can be any plainer.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#203

Post by repolfx »

derriz wrote: post #47

This isn't the only shenanigans surrounding the leave campaign. Here's another example of dodgy Leave Campaign funding - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 - where the DUP, a Northern Irish party, was given $600,000 to campaign for Leave by a shell company and spent most of it on advertisements in media that wasn't even available in Northern Ireland. But it's not surprising really. There has been a…

The claim that Leave overspent or had dodgy funding doesn't hold water: the rules are quite clearly being abused or twisted to try and nail the Leave campaign, just like the government used every other resource at its disposal to try and win.

In particular the government spent millions of pounds - more than the entire allowed budget of the remain campaign - on a giant mailshot to the entire country arguing the case to remain. They claim this is OK because it was done just before the time period in which spending was limited began. Yet it was clearly spending on the campaign. They then turned around and claimed Leave broke the rules because of a few hundred thousand pounds.

A lot of this revolves around a supposedly neutral electoral commission that is stuffed with people who openly stated they wanted Leave to lose. There is no credibility to any of the UK's campaign spending controls and they should probably all be scrapped.

As for the "euromyths" site, you've been fooled I'm afraid. It is filled with non-debunkings of "myths" and "lies" (as you put it) that turn out on inspection to be true. It's deeply embarrassing for the EU and shows they don't really understand why a free press exists, and by implication that Leave's arguments about the EU being undemocratic have weight.

For example one of the first stories listed on the page is "EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015". The newspaper reports were completely true and the EU's response is to complain that they aren't appreciated enough:

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/the-european-developmen...

It says:

The articles call funding for deprived communities in some of the poorest parts in the world “frivolous expenditure”

and

Elaborate metaphors and frivolous choice of visuals aside, mastering – to quote the articles – “the art of the trapeze” can open job opportunities for a person in Tanzania (by the way, the same project also provides courses in carpentry and sewing).

The Commission not only missed the entire point the journalists were making - that EU member states struggling to pay their own healthcare and welfare bills should not be forced to fund trapeze lessons in Tanzania - but then also engaged in this embarrassing and condescending exercise as well.

Far from the press lying to you, you've been tricked by the EU lying about the press.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#204

Post by repolfx »

untog wrote: post #46
drak0n1c wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remain campaigners were found to have violated laws as well, and they were fined. http://www.cityam.com/277767/electoral-commission-has-fined-...

I stand corrected. But still, "massively overspending" and "failing to report correct levels of spending correctly" are quite different rule breaches. It's not difficult to see why Leave ads are being examined and Remain ones aren't.

Remain massively overspent but simply did it in a way that exploited loopholes in the law. The advertising mailshot alone cost more than their entire allowed budget. They also had the entire civil service working for them, the cost of which is essentially incalculable it's so high.

The idea that Remain spent less than Leave is clearly ludicrous if you simply look at what happened. Funding wise there was no competition. The fact that parts of the government are trying to argue otherwise is just another aspect of their attempts to undo the vote by any means possible.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#205

Post by CaptainZapp »

tathougies wrote: post #82
RubenSandwich wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, quite a few of these are very xenophobic. Very much playing off of an anti Middle East sentiment. I'd specifically like to highlight these ads in this document: https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/cultu... . 2924.jpg 2966.jpg 2968.jpg

2966 and 2968 are about what the new borders of the UK would effectively be if Turkey is allowed to join the EU. Regardless of your thoughts on the Middle East, it is clear that there are dangerous people in Iraq. Given that the EU has open borders and markets (for the most part), isn't it a germaine discussion if that supranational entity wants to enlarge its borders to include ports of entry from a somewhat unstabl…

Given that the EU has open borders and markets (for the most part), isn't it a germaine discussion if that supranational entity wants to enlarge its borders to include ports of entry from a somewhat unstable country? I mean... britain wouldn't be the ones policing the border, it would be turkey.

You may be confusing the EU with the Schengen area, which is indeed (relatively) physical border less.

While most EU countries are in the Schengen area (including the non-EU members Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland) the UK was never part of the Schengen accord and manages its own borders.

While you're never asked for identification when you fly from Dusseldorf to Zurich, border controls are quite strict (on both sides) if you fly from Prague to Manchester (or to Manila for that matter).

Taking back control of the borders was always pretty much a bullshit argument, if not an outright lie by the Brexiteers, since britain never gave that up.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#206

Post by derriz »

repolfx wrote: post #203
derriz wrote: post #47

This isn't the only shenanigans surrounding the leave campaign. Here's another example of dodgy Leave Campaign funding - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 - where the DUP, a Northern Irish party, was given $600,000 to campaign for Leave by a shell company and spent most of it on advertisements in media that wasn't even available in Northern Ireland. But it's not surprising really. There has been a…

The claim that Leave overspent or had dodgy funding doesn't hold water: the rules are quite clearly being abused or twisted to try and nail the Leave campaign, just like the government used every other resource at its disposal to try and win. In particular the government spent millions of pounds - more than the entire allowed budget of the remain campaign - on a giant mailshot to the entire country arguing the case t…

I really don't understand how you could describe it as "abuse" to raise questions about the DUP case; are you challenging any of the facts raised in the article - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44624299 ?

Btw. the Leave campaign also received public funding both in direct cash and to cover the costs of public mailings for example.

It's all very well saying the spending limits should be scrapped but they were the rules in place for the referendum. You should campaign for a change in the rules, not covertly abuse the rules through shadowy shell companies and later - when exposed - argue that the rules shouldn't exists.

Regarding the euromyths site, do you really find the newspaper's protrayal of EU foreign aid/development fund spending to be honest? I guess there is a certain subjectivenss to the question but I simply cannot reconsile the content of the the newspaper's stories

"The Commission not only missed the entire point the journalists were making - that EU member states struggling to pay their own healthcare and welfare bills should not be forced to fund trapeze lessons in Tanzania - but then also engaged in this embarrassing and condescending exercise as well." This is where you've veered off from making any sort of reasonable point I could argue with to practicing the same EU-bashing the UK newspapers have been doing for years. The UK government spends about 15B EUR from it's own budget each year on foreign aid. The WHOLE OF the EU spends about 4B a year. The UK contributes NET about 7% of the EU budget, so on a pro-rata basis, the EU development fund costs the UK 250 million a year compared to the 15 billion it spends directly. So your "consern" about healthcare and welfare spendingn is completely misplaced or disingenious.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#207

Post by ionised »

chubasco wrote: post #21
B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> misinformed voters I have this notion that EU votes are repeated the number of times necessary to have the 'informed' result win.

As an American, this is definitely what it looks like to me.

Still sour about that Google fine then?

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#208

Post by laaph »

rayiner wrote: post #104
bob_bob_bob wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting people to vote leave because they don't like some foreigners (Turkey or Syria) is quite literally the definition of xenophobia. This is especially true when Turkey is not even close to joining the EU.

But the ads are not about “not liking foreigners.” They are about a country with very different beliefs and attitudes joining a bloc where they will have voting rights in bodies that have legislative power over people in the UK. That is a completely different thing. And Turkey applied to the EU in 1987, has been a full candidate EU member since 1999, and since then has been in active negotiations to join.

> But the ads are not about “not liking foreigners.” They are about a country with very different beliefs and attitudes

People with very different beliefs and attitudes exist in the same voting blocs everywhere. Should people in Portland Oregon complain that people in Jon Day get to vote in the same elections? Rural people tend to be far more religious and have very different beliefs and attitudes.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#209

Post by tathougies »

hcknwscommenter wrote: post #195
tathougies wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean in a direct democracy, a simple majority of a quorum of voters typically counts. Establishing arbitrary criteria for which votes are valid is not a democracy, especially when the various criteria are suddenly proposed after a controversial election.

A vote result arising in the context of a great many voters having been persuaded by a sophisticated propaganda attack consisting of lies, misrepresentations, and half-truths, where the attack originated from a foreign power aiming to create chaos and confusion among its enemies is not a fair vote and should not be given the legitimacy that a fair vote deserves.

So your claim is that people shouldn't be allowed to persuade others to agree with them politically? Don't you see something wrong with that thought?

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#210

Post by tathougies »

Symbiote wrote: post #200
riquito wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They wouldn't, somehow the parent must have thought about illegal immigrants, or felons

I was still thinking in the context, several comments up, of > I mean... britain wouldn't be the ones policing the border, it would be turkey.

I was referring to Britain likely having different rules and standards for entry than Turkey.
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