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Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

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Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#211

Post by daughart »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #81

Is it just me or is this ultra-political correctness a new and intresting phenomenon? I'm really interested to watch where it's all going. Pretty much all jokes are going to offend somebody. You can't ask people to smile, comment on thier clothes or belongings. You can't interact causally in the workplace at all. Perhaps we'll see workplaces where all communication is in writing and on topic. Do we want our workplace…

The idea that you can't interact casually without risking personal offense is just a knee-jerk reaction. If restricting work conversations about personal appearance, sex, gender, race, religion, rape, etc. is equivalent to eliminating all personal interactions, your conversations must be quite impoverished.

Telling you that your jokes are offensive would indeed be harassment---if you worked at a late night show or another joke-telling profession! Otherwise, no, telling you that your jokes are offensive is in fact not a form of workplace harassment.

Also, you might want to reflect on why making friends, telling jokes, laughing, and enjoying life requires you to say racist and/or sexist things at work.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#212

Post by daughart »

huhtenberg wrote: post #122
applethrow2 wrote: post #96

I'm risking a lot here... Apple employee here: I only want to provide context. None of us want a toxic environment. We, at Apple, pride ourselves on the fact that we are accepting of all backgrounds, nationalities, genders, religions. I, personally, have struggled with ensuring a diverse set of folks on my team or all backgrounds. We love the fact that we're helping to lead the industry with regard to diversity. And…

> We, at Apple, pride ourselves on the fact that we are accepting of all backgrounds, nationalities, genders, religions. Reads like a PR boilerplate.

Right? Like no one could actually be proud to work in an inclusive environment.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#213

Post by daughart »

MrLeftHand wrote: post #141
applethrow2 wrote: post #96

I'm risking a lot here... Apple employee here: I only want to provide context. None of us want a toxic environment. We, at Apple, pride ourselves on the fact that we are accepting of all backgrounds, nationalities, genders, religions. I, personally, have struggled with ensuring a diverse set of folks on my team or all backgrounds. We love the fact that we're helping to lead the industry with regard to diversity. And…

Actual sexual assault destroys humans. A joke less so. Also getting offended by peoples actions, worldviews and literally punishing them for this... destroys humans.

Is your position that people should be able to say whatever they want in the work place?

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#214

Post by daughart »

tdkl wrote: post #133
guessmyname wrote: post #24

Why are most of these articles about harassment in the office associated with American companies? Are women from other countries afraid to speak about this? Or are American women just overreacting? In this specific case I understand that insinuating a rape scenario — which by the way is not against women but "everybody" — in a work environment is bad, but without knowing what other toxic comments or behavior happened…

> Why are most of these articles about harassment in the office associated with American companies? From my other comment : This is a western syndrome of "our lives aren't in imminent danger, we don't have to think about harvesting food and information is at reach" boredom.

Why can't we merely strive to live in a world without workplace harassment?

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#215

Post by daughart »

Bootbyte wrote: post #80

Anonymous throwaway. I believe that more context for the rape joke is warranted. At Apple, it's important to cover confidential materials when undisclosed persons are present. An employee wrote that this process reminded them of the viral song Bed Intruder [1]: "hide yo wife, hide yo kids." "Danielle" objected to the joke because the song references sexual assault. The person apologized and promised to not let it hap…

In that case, Rockwell's "Somebody's Watching Me" seems like a funnier joke while simultaneously avoiding the whole rape thing.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#217

Post by daughart »

MrLeftHand wrote: post #138

It's like the penny-arcade d kwolf joke over again. Or the spiderwoman crawling pose. From the article feels like they were joking about everyone getting raped, including men. Anyway, rape is a serious crime, no doubt about that and the joke might have crossed a line. But were do we draw a line by getting offended or not? These lines are pushed further out every time and sometimes limiting freedoms. Also, men can be…

Why not just hold your tongue instead of saying a joke about rape? Doesn't really seem like that much of a limitation of your freedom, and it might really have a positive impact on someone who has been through a terrible and traumatic experience. Doesn't really seem like not joking about rape is pushing the line out too far.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#218

Post by mthoms »

scott_s wrote: post #200
mthoms wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, I can indeed see the smile comment being ill-intended or even sexist in some contexts . I just don't think you can automatically assume ill intent. As someone with depression I've been frequently told to "smile" or "lighten up" and while it's certainly annoying (and occasionally infuriating), I know that the underlying intent was probably positive.

People who are being sexist usually don't think they're being sexist - they don't usually have "ill intent." See the first comment in that thread for someone's thought process in realizing this.

Of course. But the corollary to that is just because someone interprets something as sexist doesn't automatically make it sexist.

Given an ambiguous statement, people can (and should) judge the statement based on context, and that includes perceived intent of the speaker. Human communication is much more than just words. Context and intent absolutely matter.

IMHO, everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt when dealing with such serious allegations. Or, as they say innocent until proven guilty. I wouldn't want to work in a place, or live in a society that believes otherwise. There simply needs to be a higher burden of proof than "it's sexist because I felt it was sexist".

Can it be considered sexist to say what was said? Sure. Should it be considered sexist by default? I don't think that's been proven.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#219

Post by flukus »

eli wrote: post #143
flukus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also clear that she has listened to the song enough to know the words too. So she was happy offending herself.

I'm aware of lots of offensive things that don't belong at work.

How many songs do you find offensive but listen to often enough to memorize the words?

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#220

Post by flukus »

daughart wrote: post #208
tanqueray wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Person 4's fascist solipsism is astounding. She has transferred the "toxicity" and "unacceptability"in her own mind onto the whole team. A song was referred to but there was no actual mention of sexual assault. The song is not "completely unacceptable" as it is obviously commonly known and legally sold. It is therefore acceptable in the workplace, referred to as it actually was.

Lots of things are sold legally and commonly known, but are still not acceptable to discuss in a workplace.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be. What is sold legally bu unacceptable to discuss in the workplace?
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