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Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

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Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#191

Post by DisraeliG »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #184
applethrow2 wrote: post #96

I'm risking a lot here... Apple employee here: I only want to provide context. None of us want a toxic environment. We, at Apple, pride ourselves on the fact that we are accepting of all backgrounds, nationalities, genders, religions. I, personally, have struggled with ensuring a diverse set of folks on my team or all backgrounds. We love the fact that we're helping to lead the industry with regard to diversity. And…

I'm going to remove this post. Based on applethrow2's description and the choice of "Danielle" as an alias, I assumed that they were AMAB, aka a "transwoman", aka a woman, but as DisraeliG points out one could have made the opposite assumption.

Removing this comment as I misunderstood the intention behind the above comment. It is still useful to understand the differences between the phrases trans man and trans woman:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_man

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#192

Post by justin66 »

tanqueray wrote: post #105
Blackthorn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Says who? You and a few others? Google "telling women to smile" (no quotes) should prove enlightening. If you want something more specific, I've provided two references in the post below.

Thanks for the links. I read the first one. I guess we just disagree. I am of the opinion minor discomforts are things we have to deal with/adapt to. Especially when there is work to do. You seem to be of the opinion that personal discomforts are something that we should avoid causing as a matter of the upmost importance. I think we have to agree to disagree.

> I am of the opinion minor discomforts are things we have to deal with/adapt to.

Why would you want to be the minor discomfort that people have to adapt to?

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#193

Post by mthoms »

scott_s wrote: post #72
mthoms wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to diminish any of the other claims but I found this one to be a bit of an eye roller - Describing another incident, she wrote, "I was walking back to my cube from the break room and passed a group of managers exiting a meeting. The Area Manager told me to smile as I walked past." "While this is a small thing, it was notable as this is one of the most commonly reported forms of subtle sexism." No matter how hard…

Please read this submission: "Lighten Up": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3736037

To clarify, I can indeed see the smile comment being ill-intended or even sexist in some contexts.

I just don't think you can automatically assume ill intent. As someone with depression I've been frequently told to "smile" or "lighten up" and while it's certainly annoying (and occasionally infuriating), I know that the underlying intent was probably positive.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#194

Post by tanqueray »

justin66 wrote: post #192
tanqueray wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the links. I read the first one. I guess we just disagree. I am of the opinion minor discomforts are things we have to deal with/adapt to. Especially when there is work to do. You seem to be of the opinion that personal discomforts are something that we should avoid causing as a matter of the upmost importance. I think we have to agree to disagree.

> I am of the opinion minor discomforts are things we have to deal with/adapt to. Why would you want to be the minor discomfort that people have to adapt to?

Strawman. I never said I did.

I just pointed out that you can choose to get offended by small stuff or you can just get on with things...

After all, someone saying "smile" to someone else really is small stuff.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#195

Post by mthoms »

justin66 wrote: post #188
mthoms wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that it might not be a command ? Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate. Where I'm from it's commonly meant as shorthand for "cheer up, it's not that bad" or "try to keep your chin up". Both of which actually indicate that the speaker cares about their colleague.

> Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate. Said the guy who further up the thread said he " can't fathom how that could possibly be construed as sexist."

Fair point. To clarify (as I've written elsewhere in this thread) I can indeed see how in some contexts it can be sexist. Absolutely.

What I meant to say was that in this context I can't see how it would be construed as sexist. Or put another way... I can't see how this statement automatically defaults to being sexist absent any other indicators.

At any rate, this kind of proves my point that it's very easy for communication to come across in a manner other than the speaker intended. So serious charges like "sexist" or "racist" should not be levelled lightly.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#196

Post by forgottenpass »

justin66 wrote: post #189
forgottenpass wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would anyone? Yup. Back when I was dealing with depression, I heard it all the time. "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. It's just one of those things about appearance I have to roll with. I also don't get to show up barefoot, with no t-shirt and just wearing boardshorts. So I play along and part of that is acting much happier and more amenable than I really am.…

> "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. I'm not dealing with clinical depression but I can see what you mean. If I'm upset enough about something that it is visible, the last thing I want is someone telling me to "cheer up." I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people (commissioned sales people? politicians? child molesters? I mean, I can't…

I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people [...] who would notice I'm upset and tell me to "smile."

It's not only some demanding command to modify your mood, it can be a good natured suggestion to try and keep your chin up. The person who said it to me most was my mother.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#197

Post by mthoms »

justin66 wrote: post #189
forgottenpass wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would anyone? Yup. Back when I was dealing with depression, I heard it all the time. "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. It's just one of those things about appearance I have to roll with. I also don't get to show up barefoot, with no t-shirt and just wearing boardshorts. So I play along and part of that is acting much happier and more amenable than I really am.…

> "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. I'm not dealing with clinical depression but I can see what you mean. If I'm upset enough about something that it is visible, the last thing I want is someone telling me to "cheer up." I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people (commissioned sales people? politicians? child molesters? I mean, I can't…

You're choosing to interpret it one way (and only one way). What the commenters in this thread are suggesting is that the phrase is often used with genuinely positive intent.

No matter how ill advised or inappropriate you find it, I don't think you should assume intent.

At least, where I'm from this is true. Maybe it's a societal norm that varies by culture and region.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#198

Post by justin66 »

tanqueray wrote: post #194
justin66 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am of the opinion minor discomforts are things we have to deal with/adapt to. Why would you want to be the minor discomfort that people have to adapt to?

Strawman. I never said I did. I just pointed out that you can choose to get offended by small stuff or you can just get on with things... After all, someone saying "smile" to someone else really is small stuff.

"I am sorry you chose to get offended."

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#199

Post by justin66 »

forgottenpass wrote: post #196
justin66 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. I'm not dealing with clinical depression but I can see what you mean. If I'm upset enough about something that it is visible, the last thing I want is someone telling me to "cheer up." I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people (commissioned sales people? politicians? child molesters? I mean, I can't…

I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people [...] who would notice I'm upset and tell me to "smile." It's not only some demanding command to modify your mood, it can be a good natured suggestion to try and keep your chin up. The person who said it to me most was my mother.

> The person who said it to me most was my mother.

Wow. If you're curious as to why some view it as a condescending thing to say to a colleague you really could start there.

edit: I'm surprised by your reply... only because it seems incongruous with the statement I replied to. interesting.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#200

Post by scott_s »

mthoms wrote: post #193
scott_s wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read this submission: "Lighten Up": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3736037

To clarify, I can indeed see the smile comment being ill-intended or even sexist in some contexts . I just don't think you can automatically assume ill intent. As someone with depression I've been frequently told to "smile" or "lighten up" and while it's certainly annoying (and occasionally infuriating), I know that the underlying intent was probably positive.

People who are being sexist usually don't think they're being sexist - they don't usually have "ill intent." See the first comment in that thread for someone's thought process in realizing this.
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