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Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

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Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#201

Post by Tloewald »

gizmo686 wrote: post #182
NamTaf wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you cope with people who are presently employed but want to interview? Do you expect them to find two days of absence from their present employer to test themselves at your company? I mean for me that's no problem, but I don't live in the US and therefore have pretty liberal employee leave arrangements. I know that many companies in the US are a lot harder on giving out leave. That said, it wouldn't surprise m…

I've never been in the job market yet (still in school), but I have seen some of the hiring process for teachers at my high school. For every position they are hiring, there would typically be 2 or 3 candidates who spend the day in the school (including teaching a class). Is getting 2 days off of work really that difficulty (if you plan far enough in advance)?

Yes it's terrible.

If you work in the US and have kids for which you take any level of responsibility chances are you can barely keep up with a typical schedule and have very little leave to play with. Pulling two days out of your ass for a job interview is almost impossible.

For a sufficiently awesome job, sure.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#202

Post by Tloewald »

ozgung wrote: post #84
codex wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bootcamp in the Marine Corps is an example of a tough hiring practice. Are your friends and family doctors or lawyers, per chance? Both professions use grueling hiring marathons which are much, much worse than a software engineering interview (residency and the bar exam). All other engineering professions require a rigorous licensing process, whereas software engineering is one of the cushiest jobs on the planet. In…

Two wrongs don't make a right. Hiring is broken in general and it's even more broken in SW and engineering. Not only hiring is broken, but most exams and tests are also broken. It's always possible to cheat, game the system or fake. When we were students all of us experienced studying a subject just before an exam and immediately forgetting it afterwards. Exams don't prove that you really know the topic. More importa…

This seems like rubbish to me. Exams work fine if they're employed in the right incentive system. In US universities it's not exams that are broken, it's the incentive system that they operate in. Today, exams are simply a tool for instructors to get good evals, students to get good grades, and universities to maintain accreditation.

Job interviews work fine if done properly. First, interview the right people (filter out hopeless candidates). Second, have the right people do the interview (hint: future colleagues). It's not perfect, but it's not "broken".

If you really knew the subject, you would have passed that exam.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#203

Post by MisterBastahrd »

jaredgeorge wrote: post #173
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I read "engineer," I cringe. I don't give a crap how fantastic you are at programming, if you don't have a college degree then you aren't an engineer.

I think I would agree when the profession is well defined to require such a qualification. For example, Doctors, Attorneys, CPA Accountants, all require certifications to hold a legitimate title. Engineers, Chefs, CEOs, etc do not require a degree or certification to be legitimately titled and qualified for those positions. I would never reject an engineering candidate on the sole basis of their degree.

Engineer is a professional designation.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#204

Post by kanzure »

Tloewald wrote: post #202
ozgung wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Hiring is broken in general and it's even more broken in SW and engineering. Not only hiring is broken, but most exams and tests are also broken. It's always possible to cheat, game the system or fake. When we were students all of us experienced studying a subject just before an exam and immediately forgetting it afterwards. Exams don't prove that you really know the topic. More importa…

This seems like rubbish to me. Exams work fine if they're employed in the right incentive system. In US universities it's not exams that are broken, it's the incentive system that they operate in. Today, exams are simply a tool for instructors to get good evals, students to get good grades, and universities to maintain accreditation. Job interviews work fine if done properly. First, interview the right people (filter…

> If you really knew the subject, you would have passed that exam.

Developers pass those exams and still hate the process. What now?

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#205

Post by NamTaf »

Tloewald wrote: post #201
gizmo686 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been in the job market yet (still in school), but I have seen some of the hiring process for teachers at my high school. For every position they are hiring, there would typically be 2 or 3 candidates who spend the day in the school (including teaching a class). Is getting 2 days off of work really that difficulty (if you plan far enough in advance)?

Yes it's terrible. If you work in the US and have kids for which you take any level of responsibility chances are you can barely keep up with a typical schedule and have very little leave to play with. Pulling two days out of your ass for a job interview is almost impossible. For a sufficiently awesome job, sure.

Correct. I get 4 weeks leave a year plus have flexible working arrangements (1:1 time in lieu if my work schedule e.g.: meetings permits), but that's partly because I'm ex-government (we were privatised) and also because I work in Aus, where 4 weeks is the base standard. Then I get personal leave (illness, caring for ill family, etc.) on top of that.

I know that in the US, it's often less. I've heard friends mention only a handful of days per year for leave, with sometimes needing to take that for 'sick' leave because of such low limits. For them, 2 days off to do a single interview would be impossible.

Obviously they're at the low end of the leave spectrum in the US, but given that the culture there is on the whole more restrictive I wasn't sure how that would affect interviewing.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#206

Post by MisterBastahrd »

h0w412d wrote: post #160
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I read "engineer," I cringe. I don't give a crap how fantastic you are at programming, if you don't have a college degree then you aren't an engineer.

So your title isn't dependent on your accomplishments or abilities, but only your schooling?

Can you call yourself a lawyer because you enjoy reading your state constitution? Can you call yourself an MD because you read r/poppit? No.

Engineer is a professional designation. It requires a BS, a series of exams, and years of work experience. Engineers are regulated by professional organizations. Unless you've gone through the training and the tests, you aren't an engineer. You're a developer.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#207

Post by marcosdumay »

h0w412d wrote: post #160
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I read "engineer," I cringe. I don't give a crap how fantastic you are at programming, if you don't have a college degree then you aren't an engineer.

So your title isn't dependent on your accomplishments or abilities, but only your schooling?

Yes, a title that refers to schooling is dependent on schooling.

If you want a title to mirror your ability, choose one that refers to abilities. (And again, yes, due to hystorical reasons, those are rare. Want to start a trend?)

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#208

Post by sharingancoder »

ap22213 wrote: post #100
codex wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bootcamp in the Marine Corps is an example of a tough hiring practice. Are your friends and family doctors or lawyers, per chance? Both professions use grueling hiring marathons which are much, much worse than a software engineering interview (residency and the bar exam). All other engineering professions require a rigorous licensing process, whereas software engineering is one of the cushiest jobs on the planet. In…

In a certain state of the economy, you're right. But, at least here in the US, we currently have way more demand for good developers than we have supply. Basic economics says that your model will not work. For example, the company for which I work bills me out at $250 / hr. I get something like 15-30 job requests from other companies a week. It would not make any economic sense for me to pursue any of these other com…

On an unrelated note, I'm curious to know which company this is that hires you out? I'm guessing SAIC is the current client and not the parent company (or am I looking at the wrong LinkedIn profile!)

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#209

Post by geebee »

rayiner wrote: post #190
hackinthebochs wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this follows. No one is going to check whether you passed preschool before interviewing for a job at a law firm. Presumably, someone in the process is going to check whether you passed the bar before you have a sit-down with the CEO. I'm guessing that for anyone who sets foot in an interview for a law firm, the interviewer expects he or she to have passed. This expectation comes from the fact that someo…

> I'm guessing that for anyone who sets foot in an interview for a law firm, the interviewer expects he or she to have passed. Most large firms draw their entry-level associates from their pool of summer interns, which they hire two years before they graduate law school and take the bar exam. They also usually give people a mulligan on failing the bar exam the first time, so people might work somewhere for 6+ months…

Also, you only have to take the bar once (assuming you remain in an area where your bar membership allows you to practice). You don't have to re-pass the bar exam every time you interview.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#210

Post by brightsize »

VLM wrote: post #106
norrec wrote: post #42

I've been a junior developer for almost 2 years now at a fairly large company. At my current position, there hasn't been a single task thrown at me that I have not been able to complete with ease. I've worked with multiple languages and technologies that I was not familiar with at all when I started. I tend to figure them out pretty quickly and get on with the task at hand. I've built a bunch of side projects (not al…

"I've determined that I either need to come up with an idea of my own that I can turn into a steady income or that I need to leave this field and find something else to do." What about consultant / project / contract work? Generally "the hiring process" treats candidates for full time employment relatively poorly and unprofessionally, but treats consultant / contractor types more professionally. Think about other pro…

Great example. I've thought of this many times myself -- how no customer would ever treat a trade contractor in the way that companies treat candidates. My electrician is not going to spend his valuable time letting me grill him on questions about electrical power generation and distribution, RF engineering, or even Ohm's law for that matter. When I think of it, I'm hiring him because 1) he's not a n00b, he's a journeyman, 2) he's been around - has some staying power, and thus has most likely done satisfactory work, 3) the BBB is happy with him, he must not have done any awful work, and 4) if he's on Angie's List at all, most of the people there are happy with his work. If I were to try to cop the attitude of "I'm thinking of hiring you, but you're going to get a good, humiliating hazing first" I'd fully expect to be told to F-off and I'd deserve it too.
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