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Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

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Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#151

Post by hackinthebochs »

dakrisht wrote: post #62
orangethirty wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that building a startup is merely an exercise in programming? I do agree that one should not participate in the idiotic way programmers are currently being recruited by some companies. But that doesn't mean there aren't good, BS free jobs out there. Jobs that are full-fulling and economically adequate. Not everyone aims to be on the cover of Forbes. Some people just want to program, and go home wit…

Yes, some startups are actually exercises in programming. Real talk.

Seriously. Do people actually think Tumbler, Instragram, et al were the product of some Harvard MBAs with a genius business strategy? Many times success is fully explained just by the product + timing.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#153

Post by itsybitsycoder »

lessnonymous wrote: post #133
pvdm wrote: post #29

Log(1)=0 If you interviewed once and got the job, your score would be 0.

Similarly I'm 8 for 10 and have been working for nearly 20 years. So I get a score of 80. If I had an 80% success rate, but was 18 for 20 I'd score 117. To get that, I'd need to be changing jobs every single year. The score is not only totally made up but pointless and adds nothing to the rest of the article. It's just there to suck you into the article.

If you had an 80% success rate but were 18 for 20 you'd be some sort of wizard. :))

Anyway, I think the author is assuming that each time you apply, you're applying for multiple jobs, getting multiple offers, and turning down all but the best one. I was a little surprised that my score was so low, too, given that (as a junior) I've only had 2 on-site interviews but have received 4 offers, which gives me a score of 60. Meanwhile, interviewing for 100 jobs and getting 60 offers gets you a score of 120.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#154

Post by geebee »

sandipc wrote: post #150
geebee wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think engineering is a tougher path than you do. It's as if physician had to pass a whiteboard exam on a randomly chosen topic from organic chemistry every time he or she interviewed for a new job. While I agree that the premed curriculum and med school are rigorous, attrition rates in engineering are very high. It's tough to get into med school, but it's tough to major in CS or engineering, and getting into a top…

I agree with you, but also keep in mind that leaving an engineering PhD program early ("Mastering out") still keeps your job prospects wide open. In comparison, leaving an MD program early leaves you very few options in the field, in my opinion.

Oh yes, I agree, there are all kinds of differences between the two. A partially completed degree at any level of CS helps you in your career (in fact, the blog post was written by someone who does not have a college degree).

I've discussed this with people on HN before, and I really wish I could find better stats on MS attrition rates, especially at good schools.

I was once a PhD student at UC Berkeley, and I felt it was pretty much a horror show of failure and attrition (the experience caused me to view claims of a "shortage" of US grad students in a very different light). It's tough to get into med school (or a top law school), but looking at the numbers, it doesn't appear to be any worse than top engineering grad schools (where GPAs and GRE scores are sky high). But in the professional schools, once you're in, attrition rates are very low. Yale law school, for instance, has no 1L attrition. Columbia's 1L attrition rate is 0.3%. Attrition rates for elite med schools tend to be well below 1%. Something odd is going on when congress claims that there is such a severe shortage that we need to start awarding green cards to anyone who gets a grad degree in STEM from a US university [1], yet attrition rates start at 35% (in engineering) and only get worse from there.

I think that engineering, math, physical sciences are a pretty grueling path compared to the professions - a point of view supported (at least at the PhD level) by a RAND position paper:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html

Anyway, none of this is meant to refute your point - you are right about the MS issue. Though I really do wish we had better info on MS attrition rates. When I was at UCB, there was some attrition from the MS program as well, though it was not anywhere close to as high as the PhD program.

[1] I support this, however, I don't support the reasoning behind it - that a poor educational system is the cause of the non-participation of US students in STEM grad programs. I believe the aversion is rational and market driven, and any policy to expand the engineering workforce at the graduate level should consider this carefully.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#155

Post by 31reasons »

base698 wrote: post #118
stonemetal wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://jacquesmattheij.com/Programmers+Salaries+at+google+25... Claims 130 is about average engineer salary at the big G.

I think with equity and bonuses it ends up being much, much higher with million/year being possible.

million/year ? where did you get that number ? perhaps its possible in the sales department.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#156

Post by MisterBastahrd »

archer174 wrote: post #48

Every time I read the word passion in one of these articles I cringe. This has to be the most overused word in silicon valley. It's really just a convenient way to abuse people. Can't work 90 hours? Not passionate enough. Have a family commitment? Where's your passion? Passion. We get it already.

Every time I read "engineer," I cringe. I don't give a crap how fantastic you are at programming, if you don't have a college degree then you aren't an engineer.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#158

Post by nawitus »

rikf wrote: post #120

The only recruitment process I know of that works is. Step 1) Send the candidate a small unattended coding test they can do in a couple of hours. If they pass great if they dont offer them feedback. Step 2) Invite them in for a pair programming test this should take max one hour, they can spend 15-30 minutes with one or two people on the team solving a problem. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who have amazi…

Note that many programmers get stress from the interview and perform substantially worse.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#159

Post by christopheraden »

While I might generally agree that the interview process is asinine and a rat race, I actually use some of those formal methods and algorithms in my day-to-day work--and I'm not even a computer scientist, nor do I have a CS degree.

I'll bet things are different in the startup world, but I've encountered several instances where having a very crude understanding of time complexity served me well. Hashing has been an especially powerful tool in my work, where the size of the data I work with really highlights the difference between an O(n) operation and an O(1) operation.

I would consider the interviewer asking questions about algorithms to be a sort of Fizz Buzz for the more technical positions. Perhaps it is misapplied to be asking technicalities of algorithm questions to people that will be doing more design-oriented work, just as it may be inappropriate to ask your sales force applicants to write programs during their interviews.

That said, most of the interviews I've conducted would not have been able to discriminate well the qualities that I believe make a great programmer. A focus on code longevity, discipline in conducting code review, dedication in writing unit tests, and how they search for information they don't know the answer to are important qualities that a technical interview will largely be unable to see.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#160

Post by h0w412d »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #156
archer174 wrote: post #48

Every time I read the word passion in one of these articles I cringe. This has to be the most overused word in silicon valley. It's really just a convenient way to abuse people. Can't work 90 hours? Not passionate enough. Have a family commitment? Where's your passion? Passion. We get it already.

Every time I read "engineer," I cringe. I don't give a crap how fantastic you are at programming, if you don't have a college degree then you aren't an engineer.

So your title isn't dependent on your accomplishments or abilities, but only your schooling?
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