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Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

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Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#201

Post by ValentineC »

tristanj wrote: post #84
xgstation wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one reason why Deepseek & GLM are priced so cheaply, they are competing with impossibly low token prices in China. They have to keep prices low, in order for people to use them. This one does not make sense to me at all. Deepseek and GLM are openweights, even US inference provider are selling them at much cheaper price. The price is cheap because the model is more efficient.

DeepSeek permanently cut its V4-pro API prices by 75% because they were too expensive. Without the price cut, Deepseek V4-pro tokens would have cost more than resold Opus 4.8 tokens. Opus 4.8 is a more capable model, so almost nobody was going to pay for V4-pro at the original price.

If other providers can match Deepseek's first party prices, that probably means that the economics for running inferencing work out for them.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#202

Post by za3faran »

UltraSane wrote: post #151
m-ee wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never did. In debt the first 5000 years Geaeber makes the case that pure “free market” trade has never really existed in “the west”. The closest to this ideal that’s ever happened was during the Islamic golden age enabled by religious prescriptions against usury.

Without interest why would anyone loan money? Even the Islamic banking alternatives all just hide the interest charges.

Loaning money as per Islamic Law is a charitable act, not one of exploitation.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#203

Post by chaostheory »

solid_fuel wrote: post #179
thesmtsolver2 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what economics told me the free market was all about. Don't complain when US starts to play by the same rules China has been using for decades.

What is the implication here? Are you warning that US corporations might start doing something shady, like scraping the internet at large scale for training data? Or mass-dowloading pirated copies of books, completely ignoring copyright? I find it hard to imagine a future where US corporations have degraded to such a point.

No, he means that the US will close most of its domestic market to competition just like China has for decades, and the US may start subsidizing and dumping its goods everywhere

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#204

Post by canadiantim »

XenophileJKO wrote: post #188
Mistletoe wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI was always going to be a race to the bottom and low margins. It’s why I’m extremely bearish on AI as an investment. It’s framed as some high margin business when it’s really going to end up like your toilet paper at Costco. You will use whatever is cheapest and gets the job done.

I used to think this.. but I think my opinion is changing. The reason is that the leaders likely will be able to accelerate faster. So what you see is the market "stretching".. the bottom getting cheaper and the top end running away and getting more expensive. At some point the top end may be too valuable to even sell access to.

Glm 5.2 very much argues against that. Opus 4.8 level quality for cheap. That’s sufficient for most tasks, so if/when you do need SOTA models you can spend more for specific tasks but otherwise rely on the cheap but still plenty good models for everything else

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#205

Post by bel8 »

epsteingpt wrote: post #40
nonethewiser wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's not really equivocation in this instance. This feels like a 'bad faith' comment. We can do better. LLM's literally wouldn't work without the sum total of knowledge (in the forms of books and other copyrighted content) being used as 'training data' for these LLMs. The 'bleeding edge' LLMs required many things, but: 1 Tech innovation ('attention') 2 Lots of compute 3 Data 4 Pre + post training #4 doesn't happen wi…

The tech is Google's invention, popularized by OpenAI, so Anthropic should still stfu in that case.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#206

Post by gruez »

adjejmxbdjdn wrote: post #196
gruez wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. Yeah, like all those Chinese bootleggers selling DVDs for a few dollars rather than $20. Free market! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664814

Bootlegging is copyright theft. Is Claude output copyrighted? If anything, a tremendous amount of Claude’s input is copyrighted. If there’s any bootlegging going on it’s Anthropic that’s doing the bootlegging but having mirrored the video etc sufficiently to beat copyright law.

>Bootlegging is copyright theft.

Ok, but what about those shady sites that resell Windows education keys? They're certainly a "better experience" than buying legit keys, by virtue of being significantly cheaper. You aren't even really committing copyright infringement in the process, because Microsoft gives out windows isos for free, and the seller is really selling a random 25 character string, which can hardly be copyrighted.

>If there’s any bootlegging going on it’s Anthropic that’s doing the bootlegging but having mirrored the video etc sufficiently to beat copyright law.

US courts have consistently ruled it's fair use.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#207

Post by ValentineC »

tristanj wrote: post #192
tamimio wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im ok with this! Is there a site that list all these resellers, or better, a openrouter-like for these resellers?

They're called 中转站 (transfer stations/proxies). They can be a bit tricky to find on your own, so I'd suggest asking your preferred AI to search in Mandarin for you. I linked a larger operator in the parent comment, or have a look at https://hvoy.ai/ which lists a ton. You can also find many on Funpay, which may be easier to use. This is one seller I found, they're reselling "real Max 20x subscription accounts", at ~9…

> They can be a bit tricky to find on your own, so I'd suggest asking your preferred AI to search in Mandarin for you.

Random, but are the frontier AI providers like ChatGPT better at searching the Chinese internet now?

When I was in China a few months ago and asking AI for restaurant recommendations, all the US frontier providers were pretty useless, or plain out hallucinating, even if I specifically ask them to search Dianping (Yelp for China).

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#208

Post by 14 »

avd201 wrote: post #107
nonethewiser wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not so sure because we only seem to see distillation from China. What’s preventing tech companies from the UK, Germany, etc. from distilling Claude, GPT, etc. Do they simply lack the ability to? Point being there may be no technical solution but there may be a political one (theoretically).

Aside from politics/law, it's probably much easier for everyone else to distill from the Chinese model which already distilled Claude/GPT/Gemini. Maybe not as good a result, but you don't need to jump through dozens of hoops.

This reminds me of the whisper game played in elementary school. Starts with a sentence and the person whispers it to the next kid who again whispers it and on and on until it goes around the circle where the last kid has to repeat the sentence. Hint it never once was even close to the starting phrase. I would love to see what one model copying another model that is again copied however many times would look like in the end.
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