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Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

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Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#201

No, it cannot. The fundamental problem between the US and EU it is that in the US if something is not explicitly forbidden, it is allowed and in the EU if it is not explicitly allowed it is forbidden. You cannot have innovation at the speed and scale that you have in the US because the legislation is cumbersome and there is no unified market with the same rules.

What? Your comment is 100% incorrect. In the EU everything is permitted unless explicitly forbidden. Source: I am European.

It's sometimes very telling when other people think of you and your country. While I do agree we in Europe have sometimes too many rules, but I just can't understand the American obsession with freedom and being able to do things to the detriment of society

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#202
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer not to have views of my home permanently archived and made available to anyone in the world, unless they can present a reasonable need for it. City planners? Go ahead. Local people for navigation purposes? Go ahead. But some random bloke from another continent? That's clearly too far. Services like Street View should have distance-based friction to preserve privacy. The further you are, the less (or at lower…

This is just NIMBYism, literally. Street View is one of the most amazing technologies ever invented. It brings humanity closer together. No longer do you need to get a visa and get on a plane to see what the world is like in a particular place. You can just look on street view. Throughout history people have given up their lives for that kind of world knowledge. Your inclination to ruin one of humanity's greatest ach…

NIMBY is something different, but I'm a proud NIMBY too. People can vote for what happens in their own towns.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#203
post #9
post #6

Sure, theoretically, if it could come to an agreement, and meanwhile the cross-border cooperation of even the inter-EU countries is at an abysmal rate, and currently, even during a goddamn land war with Russia, Germany and France can't come to an agreement to build a fighter jet ensemble (together).

This is unfortunately the problem. The level of the public debate is abysmal, most politicians push unbelivably stupid shit about immigration and other identitarian nonsense, budget gets spent to ensure cheese and wine have the proper AOC certifications on them. Honestly up to a point I even understand it, many people don't see themselves as having a meaningful identity as EU citizens and you can't force it upon them…

> many people don't see themselves as having a meaningful identity as EU citizens

I sometimes wonder if the citizens of the United States (of America) even comprehend that the EU is not itself a sovereign nation (unlike the states in say, the USA, or Australia) and is just a union of sovereign polities.

Nobody in the EU is an EU Citizen unless they are a citizen of one of the member states.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can debate the details and implementation but EU legislature is, at least in spirit, trying to protect human rights That's an unfounded assertion. Of course, politicians will claim this to be the case. I don't see how patronising citizens protects their human rights, though.

You don't see how protecting the commons from being exploited by hypercapitalists for their own profit is protecting the rights of the average person?

I don't subscribe to ideological categories such as "hypercapitalists". So, no, I don't see that.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can debate the details and implementation but EU legislature is, at least in spirit, trying to protect human rights That's an unfounded assertion. Of course, politicians will claim this to be the case. I don't see how patronising citizens protects their human rights, though.

You don't see how protecting the commons from being exploited by hypercapitalists for their own profit is protecting the rights of the average person?

It's not even doing that

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#206
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does it say about progress that the same laws that protect human rights also stifle innovation? Innovative methods to destroy human life are "stifled" by measures intended to preserve human life. What to you mean by "progress" -- the betterment of the human condition, or the enrichment of the few and powerful?

If someone gets rich because they provide an affordable useful service to millions then that is definitely progress. They should get rich.

And that is the difference in philosophy between the European and American mindset, and why America actually innovates.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#207
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The founding fathers created a document that was already struggling with modern realities prior to Trump. 250 years is not a particularly impressive amount of time for a country to not fall apart.

>250 years is not a particularly impressive amount of time for a country to not fall apart. 250 years is older than almost every country in Europe (by that I mean current borders and form of government, not the ancient historical ones). Most were monarchies or various forms of dictatorship till only a few decades ago and finally settled on their current borders only after WW2 or the fall of the USSR or the Yugoslav w…

> conflict free stability is super impressive by that standard.

Not much happened between 1861 and 1865?

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sums up EU in a nutshell, if it cannot compete in the open market, fund it by tax payers money (defence budgets are funded by tax payers money)

I mean US is doing the same thing with intel so not like this is EU exclusive

You cannot be seriously comparing Mistral to Intel. Intel might be falling behind right now, but they were pioneers in 90s and 2000s. When has Mistral ever been a pioneer on anything?

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can debate the details and implementation but EU legislature is, at least in spirit, trying to protect human rights That's an unfounded assertion. Of course, politicians will claim this to be the case. I don't see how patronising citizens protects their human rights, though.

It's certainly a good question. On the idealistic side it's the right choice, people should have the right to have a say in their own data since it's implicitly copyrighted. GDPR has done wonders to prevent careless personal data leaks that are so common in the US, and other kinds of abuse. In a more practical view though I'm not sure if it'll do anything to stop job replacement from automation as such. Most corporat…

> GDPR has done wonders to prevent careless personal data leaks that are so common in the US, and other kinds of abuse.

Has it? I still have to see evidence of that. What GDPR definitely has achieved, though, is people engaging in pointless busywork out of fear some busybody is trying to have them fined for being in violation of GDPR.

> In a more practical view though I'm not sure if it'll do anything to stop job replacement from automation as such.

Again, I fail to see how automating jobs is supposed to be something negative. If a job can be automated that means humans ultimately can engage in more worthwhile endeavours. Most modern jobs would have been completely alien to someone from the 19th century. The same applies conversely. How many farriers do you know personally?

> In general I think it's good for the EU to try and slow down adoption of bleeding edge tech so the US population with its lack of regulations can act as guinea pigs and absorb most of the early damage until we figure out what is the best approach when we get around to adopting it.

Quite frankly, by that point there might be not be enough left of the EU to make such a (very) late adoption possible or even relevant at all. We're talking about a timescale of just a few years for a revolution that'll dwarf the Industrial Revolution (which took an entire century, give or take). Up until now, the benefits by far outweigh the downsides and if we're talking about catastrophic damage (essentially, the SkyNet scenario), EU regulation certainly won't stop a US AI from killing Europeans.

> An old example is lots of late adopters going straight to gigabit fiber instead of being stuck on copper DSL.

That's actually a very good example of how overly cautious behaviour in European countries leads to those countries being left behind. Up until very recently, for example, Germany's last mile Internet infrastructure was largely DSL-based (perhaps, still is; at least they're trying to make more use of fibre optics now).

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#210
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU legislature is an actual corpus of laws. It’s imperfect, but it’s arguably better than having a guy that can block a model or threat companies because they crossed him.

No it's not. Europe has no models to even block. The US has a guy who occasionally can screw things up for a few weeks, but who will be gone in a while. You have it upside down: the innovation and the stuff is the valuable thing, the laws are there to help us organize ourselves a bit after the fact. They're always a secondary concern to the extent that the vast majority of civilization is working with one another, do…

Exactly. Europe makes the process and bureaucracy the end itself rather than understanding that they are one part of a means to an end, of actual innovation. People don't call Europe a mausoleum for nothing.
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