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European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

arstechnica.com

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Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#201

Post by Animats »

userbinator wrote: post #131
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there really cars where the horn is not a physical button/ring on the steering wheel? Yes: https://antiquecarmuseumofiowa.org/wp-content/uploads/1913-F... Well ... "are" is kinda stretching it...

Touché! It's interesting how early vehicles were very different in their controls, but seemed to mostly converge and stabilise for a few decades, before again diverging and changing rapidly. The Model T (Ford) had a throttle on the steering wheel and 3 pedals, but not the ones you'd expect today: https://www.fordmodelt.net/images/ford-model-t-controls_smal...

> but seemed to mostly converge and stabilise for a few decades

Due to regulation.

The US Congress mandated the PRNDSL quadrant for automatic transmissions. (GM had PNDSLR, and people kept shifting into reverse by accident.)

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#202

Post by consp »

ok_dad wrote: post #143
static_void_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronic power steering already exists. It's used in a lot of cars, and has been for at least 10 years. Your car may have one of these systems in it. In an electric power steering system there are steering angle and torque sensors that know what direction the wheel is turned an how hard it has turned, and this is connected to an electric motor that powers the gears to move the steering rack. There are still regulat…

Most of the modern steering systems are just hydraulic or electronic power steering which boosts your input with a hydraulic or electric assist motor. You're still moving the mechanical linkage at any time you're steering, it's just that when the car is off the assist motor is disabled and because modern cars have massive tire contract patches, huge weights, and a lot more caster compared to yesteryear, it's damn nea…

> it's damn near impossible to turn the wheels when the car is off and not moving.

That was also strongly discouraged on older cars and only possible with big steering wheels and good grip. Just move very slowly and the turning becomes really easy even without assistance (and which is what you were thought when this was still a thing in countries with required driving lessons).

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#203

Post by kergonath »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #142
userbinator wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the least bit helped by the fact that there seem to be several models all called the "Model S", but with very different controls. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-DEB259C... For vehicles manufactured as of approximately January 2024: To sound the horn, press the middle of the steering yoke (or steering wheel). For vehicles manufactured prior to approximately January 2024: To sound the horn, pr…

Thanks for that link, which has images. Jesus, the pre-2024 horn is insane . It's one tiny button among many on the right side (of that stupid yoke, but I digress...) The whole point of having the horn in the middle of the steering wheel is you can just mash it with your palm, no need to hunt for anything. Really wonder how that ever got into a production car in the first place.

> Really wonder how that ever got into a production car in the first place.

Teslas are the Dunning-Kruger cars. Designed by people who seemingly do not really know how to design cars (a wheel is boring; let’s put a yoke because video games! Look how cool we are! Also, touchscreens!) and built with poor quality control. I was not aware of the horn button, but if I had to guess, Tesla would be my first choice.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#204

Post by consp »

pmontra wrote: post #199
ok_dad wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the modern steering systems are just hydraulic or electronic power steering which boosts your input with a hydraulic or electric assist motor. You're still moving the mechanical linkage at any time you're steering, it's just that when the car is off the assist motor is disabled and because modern cars have massive tire contract patches, huge weights, and a lot more caster compared to yesteryear, it's damn nea…

Turning my car at low speed with the engine off feels much harder than 1.5 times the turning of an old times car of similar weight. I could hardly make it turn at all when it happened. I don't think I'd be able to make it through a real turn on a road. And I have a small car of about 1000 kg.

You also have to overcome the little but non zero friction of the power steering and your steering wheel is considerably smaller than they used to be.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#205

Post by Dylan16807 »

lelanthran wrote: post #146
thepasswordis wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that on cars like Tesla, UI updates will change the location of these buttons . This drives me INSANE. The other one: some of the Tesla UIs feel like they were made with "minimalism" in mind. For instance the rear defroster vs the windshield defroster. I still, 3 years into my model Y, have no idea which is which, and every time I need to defrost the front windshield it's like a fight against the HVAC…

How is it possible to love a car that does things you hate when there are other cars at the same price that does everything the object of your love does, and doesn't do the things you hate? It sounds like an irrational love for the car.

What's your list of other cars that have the same charging network access and self-driving capabilities?

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#206

Post by sandermvanvliet »

onionisafruit wrote: post #87
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there really cars where the horn is not a physical button/ring on the steering wheel? Yes: https://antiquecarmuseumofiowa.org/wp-content/uploads/1913-F... Well ... "are" is kinda stretching it...

My grandmother used to have a car where the horn was a button at the end of one of the stems. I think it was on the same stem that controlled the wipers. I wish I remembered what kind of car it was. I think it was from the 40s.

My Land Rover Defender has that too and that’s from early 2000, think they kept that for quite a bit longer than that too.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#207

Post by modeless »

> Now, Euro NCAP is not insisting on everything being its own button or switch. But the organization wants to see physical controls for turn signals, hazard lights, windshield wipers, the horn, and any SOS features

This is much more reasonable than I assumed. Unlike seemingly most people here I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (of course the vast majority of car touchscreens are not, but some are). However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas. Or at least it was, until they removed the physical turn signal controls. I'm very much in favor of requiring safety critical controls that must be used frequently or urgently to be physical.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#208

Post by asyx »

Reason077 wrote: post #81
focusgroup0 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a ride with an owner of a brand new BMW with glass cockpit and minimal buttons. He complained to the dealer about not being able to find any of the actions in the endlessly nested menus. The dealer's response: Use voice controls. He tried it, and it's even worse than Siri in terms of reliability. Absolute unmitigated disaster.

I’ve yet to find any car where the voice control works speedily and reliably, unless using Siri via CarPlay. (Siri is actually pretty great at accurately recognising words, it’s just not always so good at doing something useful with them…) Even Tesla’s is really bad: “Turn off the wipers” frequently gets interpreted as “turn off the wife please” or other similar nonsense.

Haven't used it extensively but BMW and Mercedes works reasonably well in German.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#209

Post by dzhiurgis »

croo wrote: post #190
dzhiurgis wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obvious limitation is something like Maps and media. My guess ones that use mechanical dials (i.e. Lexus until ~ year ago) cause more distraction than touchscreen by simply being harder to use and taking more time to solve your problem. Given how well chatgpt's voice recognition works - why not just put it on all cars!

> Given how well chatgpt's voice recognition works - why not just put it on all cars! Because saying "roll down the left window" is still a fucking nuisance compared to a click of a button.

Open/Close all windows comes to mind. Fading audio forward/backward/center is a PITA on a Tesla. There's tons of things one should be able to automate - don't you have any imagination?

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#210

Post by nikau »

noncoml wrote: post #135
tom_ wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 1995 Renault Clio had it as a button on the indicator stalk. Worked very well, in my view. Much easier than pressing the centre of the steering wheel. There's often no need to even move your hand!

Probably a French thing. My dad’s 70’s Peugeot had the horn where in most cars today is the windscreen washer action, ie pull towards you the right stalk. I would prank my 6-7yo cousin at the time that all you had to do is ask the car to beep and it would do

80s Fords in Australia had horn on a stalk too
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