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Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

theguardian.com

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Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#201

Post by Nextgrid »

robotcookies wrote: post #158
whynotmaybe wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just watched this Tom Scott video this morning about a Chinese company that created a "pod" where you can replace the battery instead of charging it. https://youtu.be/hNZy603as5w You can buy the car and rent the battery. Each time you need to "recharge", you change it.

There have been several attempts to make battery swapping for cars a thing. This includes Tesla's attempt and another company that went bankrupt. For some reason, it does not seem to work out and they all stop trying it.

I bet the reason it doesn't work out is greed and that everyone is doing their own incompatible system. Gas/petrol would also not work out if every car brand had their own unique & incompatible composition of fuel.

This is something that governments could solve. Commission a decent swappable battery form-factor and offer tax rebates & incentives to both buyers of compatible vehicles (thus incentivizes manufacturers to make those vehicles) as well as gas stations to adopt the system.

It doesn't have to be perfect performance-wise, if battery swaps take 5 minutes and every gas station supports it, it'll still be good even if the effective range of such battery is half of a custom proprietary one's.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#202

Post by saltcured »

j4yav wrote: post #73
Dalewyn wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand how car loans work? Let's say a car costs $50,000 and Joe wants to finance it (because he either doesn't have $50,000 or just doesn't want to spend $50,000 right now), so he gets a $50,000 loan to buy it. Let's also say the loan will mature in 10 years, also obviously the loan has interest but we don't need a specific number for this conversation. The minimum payment per month will be set…

Thanks! Indeed I've always paid cash for any new cars I've bought. But I still don't see how companies that provide leases are able to purchase a car, lease it out for cheaper than the cost of a loan to people who couldn't afford the loan, and still make money despite the depreciation? Imagine a car that costs 50,000 - a 10 year loan will be 500 or so per month according to https://www.calculator.net/auto-loan-calcul…

Answering from a US point of view... Generally, the total cost of leasing a car is going to be more than the total cost to buy a car on a loan and resell the car in the same time period. In a perfect market, I think the difference in the total cost of loan versus lease is essentially the value of transferring risk from the consumer to the lessor as to whether the car retains its anticipated residual value at the end of the term.

With a loan, the buyer pays off the principal and interest and absorbs any discrepancy between the resale value and the remaining debt. With a lease, the lessor absorbs the discrepancy as long as the consumer meets the other stipulations of the lease, such as mileage limits and maintenance. The lessor acts almost like an insurer to charge fees and absorb this risk across a whole fleet of cars.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#203

Post by MichaelRo »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #168
MichaelRo wrote: post #143

I have an acquaintance that bought an electric BMW for roughly €80,000. My Dacia has cost me €4500 when it was brand new 14 years ago and I'm still driving it. In my opinion electric cars are too expensive, yeah :)

You know you can buy €80,000 ice cars too right? Why would you compare cars that arent competing with each other?

What the fuck does "aren't competing with each other" mean?

They are cars. They do the same shit, take you from point A to point B. That's the definition of competing with each other.

Also, most of this world isn't made up by overpaid Valley developers but people who care about cost.

I'm buying the cheapest, couldn't give a fuck that it's electric if it costs more. And like me there are billions.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#204

Post by Nextgrid »

oceanplexian wrote: post #131
PaulKeeble wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While true if you haven't noticed it Solar and Wind are taking off at a staggering rate for electrical production. At prices around $15 per MWH they are substantially cheaper than gas/coal/oil electrical production. The economics just work out now in a big way and renewables are so much cheaper fossil fuels days are numbered. Besides if you just car about the economics and not the potential reduction on the planet th…

If renewables are substantially cheaper, why did the UK and the rest of Europe have an energy crisis and record energy prices? The two things don’t add up, on one hand you have people claiming renewables are cheaper than ever, on the other you have skyrocketing electric bills. If renewables don’t actually decrease energy prices for consumers then claiming it’s cheaper is misleading.

> why did the UK and the rest of Europe have an energy crisis and record energy prices?

What senile, old, corrupt and/or stupid politicians decide isn't necessarily the rational choice, and in fact is often the opposite.

Mismanagement shouldn't be seen as a failure or a flaw of the underlying technology.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#205

Post by simonblack »

Get back to me when there is enough infrastructure to support buying an EV as against an ICE car.

That means having an electrical grid that can support charging millions of cars every night, having sufficient charging stations that you don't have to queue up to access one, having sufficient charging stations that you can be assured of finding enough of them through rural, regional or desert areas. In other words, everywhere an ICE can go should be where an EV car can go. We are not at that level yet.

Oh. And the cost. Still far too high to be economical.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#206

Post by Nextgrid »

relativ575 wrote: post #118
tfrutuoso wrote: post #9

Yes? Not only that, most of them look terrible and the driving technique has to change dramatically to get any half decent range. It's a lot less engaging to daily an EV.

Most of them look exactly like the ICE versions of the same maker. Can you give example of EVs that you don't like, and the ICE vehicles that you like?

A lot of the entry-level, "city" EVs do indeed look stupid. This is less of a problem as you go up in the range though and indeed high-end EVs look barely any different than their ICE counterparts.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#207

Post by pmg102 »

marcusverus wrote: post #182
Nextgrid wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> drove it for another 10 What about maintenance? There's a lot of moving parts (often the labor to get to the part costs more than the part itself) and a stroke of bad luck can quickly balloon into 4-digit sums. Paying a flat monthly fee for transport sounds like an attractive option to not have to worry about any of that.

Maintenance costs are easily managed by avoiding brands which generally require frequent or expensive maintenance. Regardless, they don’t hold a candle to the long term savings. If one lacks the rainy-day savings to afford a hypothetical thousand-dollar repair bill, one certainly cannot afford to throw away thousands of dollars every year “to not have to worry” about one’s precarious finances.

And yet so many people "can afford" £300 pcm but "couldn't afford" a yearly unexpected maintenance bill of £2000. Even though the latter is half the cost. It's inability to financially plan over more than a monthly horizon. I think it's because financial literacy is not taught. Or is it just human nature that it's harder to choose to put £200 aside every month for future possible repairs than to pay a £300 monthly bill you have no choice over.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#208

Post by HDThoreaun »

MichaelRo wrote: post #203
HDThoreaun wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know you can buy €80,000 ice cars too right? Why would you compare cars that arent competing with each other?

What the fuck does "aren't competing with each other" mean? They are cars. They do the same shit, take you from point A to point B. That's the definition of competing with each other. Also, most of this world isn't made up by overpaid Valley developers but people who care about cost. I'm buying the cheapest, couldn't give a fuck that it's electric if it costs more. And like me there are billions.

No, €80,000 luxury cars are not doing the same as the economy cars are. Their job is more than just point A to point B. You can get electric cars for much less than that if you dont care about luxury and signaling.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#209

Post by user568439 »

Bissness wrote: post #81

Electric cars do not make sense to own if you are not also owning a garage where you can charge them overnight. Also, if you are unwilling to add 1+ hour(s) to your travel time on longer distances.

Not if the municipality is installing enough low speed but cheap charging spots in the street parking. That’s working in some European countries at least

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#210

Post by readthenotes1 »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #208
MichaelRo wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the fuck does "aren't competing with each other" mean? They are cars. They do the same shit, take you from point A to point B. That's the definition of competing with each other. Also, most of this world isn't made up by overpaid Valley developers but people who care about cost. I'm buying the cheapest, couldn't give a fuck that it's electric if it costs more. And like me there are billions.

No, €80,000 luxury cars are not doing the same as the economy cars are. Their job is more than just point A to point B. You can get electric cars for much less than that if you dont care about luxury and signaling.

You can get ICE cars for less as well....
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