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U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

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Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#201

Post by nerdyadventurer »

nairboon wrote: post #171
bluehatbrit wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the offer to rejoin Horizon has been on the table to the UK for a long time now. The UK government have been the ones dragging their heels on actually doing the work to kick off that process. Scientists like Sir Paul Nurse have been very outspoken for several years about this. That's not to say there aren't failings in the EU, there definitely are, but this is heavily on the UK.

I don't know the details about the UK. But the EU has been playing this game with Switzerland since 2013. Switzerland can bankroll the costs, but it's the scientists and science overall tha slows down due to this.

> But the EU has been playing this game with Switzerland since 2013. Switzerland can bankroll the costs, but it's the scientists and science overall tha slows down due to this.

Can anyone please elaborate this situation?

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#202

Post by okeuro49 »

PedroBatista wrote: post #69

This is "great news" for researchers and UK universities in particular but this is also "terrible news" because it's yet another instance of special treatment that weakens the overall system. What I mean by that it's the notion of "we can be out while still be kinda in". No system can survive for long if this is widespread. I get most of the UK scientific community was against Brexit, but the truth is the majority vo…

> yes it's a terrible mistake even seen from Pluto

The EU isn't some sort of perfect organisation and is _badly_ in need of reform.

To quote Veroufakis:

> As he spoke, Schäuble directed a piercing look at Sapin. ‘Elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy,’ he began. ... Of course he had a point: democracy had indeed died the moment the Eurogroup acquired the authority to dictate economic policy to member states without anything resembling federal democratic sovereignty.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#203

Post by xsdu »

alex201 wrote: post #197

Brilliant! After years of delay and uncertainty, €2.6 billion per year to regain access to a program they were once part of? Who needs that extra money for healthcare, education, or infrastructure anyway? Is this a hint that someone's tail is between her legs and wants another change?

The UK never wanted out of Horizon, it was part of the brexit agreement. The EU is back-pedalling here, not the UK.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#204

Post by n4r9 »

gadders wrote: post #148
mcintyre1994 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that it was less honest on the basis that the Leave side didn't have the equivalent of a general election manifesto. Cameron had his negotiated deal and Remain was continuity his government. But Leave didn't present any concrete document of what they wanted to happen next if we left, and if they had created such a document the referendum wouldn't have given them the power to put their plan into practice. Th…

I take your point - it wasn't like Labour was Remain, and Conservatives were Leave - in reality all major parties and much of the establishment was remain. But I'm not sure that's dishonesty in that people were deliberately saying things that were not true - people were instead saying "These are the things made possible if we leave the EU and you vote for a party that wants this in a general election."

The point as I understand it is that there was no unified vision for what leaving the EU would look like. There was instead a multitude of voices making (in many cases) grandiose and outlandish promises. For example:

"So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU." - David Davis [https://conservativehome.com/2016/07/14/david-davis-trade-de...]

Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be "one of the easiest in human history" - Liam Fox [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40667879]

Brexit would leave arrangements on the Irish border "absolutely unchanged" - Boris Johnson [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452]

This meant that even when Leave won, there was a great amount of confusion and turmoil over what that actually implied. That's why the Chequers deal fell through despite fulfilling the outcoem of the referendum.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#205

Post by Symbiote »

IntelMiner wrote: post #132
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the big selling point is flexibility in regulation. The trouble is that using that flexibility would be bad for exporters so it's pretty tricky to use effectively.

I seem to recall the latter being expected, that the UK would drop regulations on imports, leading to low-quality American foodstuffs (corn syrup) flooding the market

A Facebook ad caught my eye recently, as it was a British newspaper's "Least healthy breakfast cereal" and the picture was something I didn't recognize at all.

I was then surprised to see American cereal is now sold in the UK, and it's packed with the colourings and additives British parents in the 1990s would have refused to have in the house. Pre-Brexit, "No artificial colours or flavours" could be pretty much assumed for all cereal sold in Britain, even the colourful, sugary ones.

That's no longer the case. Example: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/282819954

Contains Tartrazine (E102)*, Sunset Yellow (E110)*, Brilliant Blue (E133), Allura Red (E129)*

E102 — in the EU, not allowed in cereal

E110 — allowed, although the UK government previously asked manufacturers to stop using this

E133 — not easily determined from Wikipedia, although there's an example of British manufacturers stopping its use in the 2000s.

E129 — allowed I think.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#206

Post by Symbiote »

orwin wrote: post #64
mytailorisrich wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If being part of the scheme suddenly makes everything possible then I'd say the system is indeed designed to make things difficult for those not part of the scheme... Let's not kid ourselves, this is geopolitics and influence, not just generous cooperation. Edit: Very strange to observe the reactions to my comment... many of you seem have a knee-jerk, black and white, if not naive, reaction to Brexit and the EU. Both…

I don't think you appreciate how H2020 (the previous Horizons Europe) worked imho. Go make research on air purity in the UK. Buy your captors, your GPU, data storage, all that stuff. Or,and this is crazy, participate in a project across Europe. Paris already have captors a'd the data is already accessible. Munich make their air data accessible, like Rome and Berlin. Now you buy captors for a dozen small cities accros…

As I understand it, it's not allowed for a third-country institution to lead part of an EU project. They can collaborate on specific tasks.

The UK joining now means a group at Manchester University can lead the work on health outcomes, not just be a part of it under someone else.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#207

Post by Symbiote »

mrbadger wrote: post #128

What's overlooked by many commenting on this is that cooperation with UK science will not revert to pre-Brexit levels. EU scientists do not have freedom of movement to the UK, nor do their families and any dependents. The bureaucratic obstacles to movement are considerable and there are no signs that this is about to change. UK scientists are still applying for jobs abroad in droves. Irish universities receive a grea…

Additionally, EU residents no longer even have the right through their residence to visit the UK. That makes organizing collaboration with Britain more complicated if you have a PhD student from Iran in the group, or a postdoc from China.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#208

Post by t43562 »

archsurface wrote: post #184
swores wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation? Taking this Horizon story as an example, the fact that we've rejoined shows that EU membership isn't necessary for it, but it still has "years out of the deal" as a negative for Brexit and I don't think any improvement to count as a positive?

Pros and cons, you can't look just at this example. Also, a project as big as Brexit takes many years to play out; the transition has barely begun, the conversation is futile at this point, and will be for years.

That's how people sold communism.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#209

Post by Planktonne »

nairboon wrote: post #176
FatherPaulStone wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

couldn't you simply apply the same logic to any aspect of the EU? The EU still keeps trade as a hostage for political games. Think about, who looses when you prevent trade from happening? All of society. This is very self-destructive. The EU still keeps free movement as a hostage for political games. Think about, who looses when you prevent free movement from happening? All of society. This is very self-destructive.…

These things are different from science. They are local issues with local effects. But science is a global endeavor involving all of humanity, suppressing this for some local political quarrel is quite a low move.

Trade and free movement are definitionally not local issues with local effects.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#210

Post by vkou »

archsurface wrote: post #182
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did I say "never joining"? I said it was not imminent (it isn't) or guaranteed (and it isn't). Nobody lied to Turkey. They know there are economic, political, social etc. targets that they have to meet before they progress to EU membership. I've been a candidate for lots of things I didn't get. Haven't you? They first applied in 1987, 29 years before the Brexit vote. It has been more than seven years since that vote.…

Did the remain campaign point it out?

So, here's the thing about lies.

If I start shouting to millions of people that you've been beating your wife, there's literally nothing you can say to undo this damage.

If you deny it, you'll just bring further attention to the lie.

If you ignore it, I'll keep bringing further attention to the lie.

Politics only works well when everyone follows some basic decorum.

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