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U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

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Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#141

Post by mytailorisrich »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #103
ninjin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are suggesting what? That the UK would be allowed to join a scheme that hands out a large pot of money drawn from EU tax payers without pitching in? Give me a break. Framing this as some sort of ominous plot requires leaps of logic that is far beyond what I can even imagine. If the UK wants to stay outside, they are more than welcome to keep their funds and do so. However, I can tell you exactly how happy my a…

He's suggesting that the scheme should not exist at all, and researchers should just collaborate with whoever they want via project-specific setups.

I'm not suggesting that at all... I am not suggesting anything.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#142

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

swores wrote: post #119
nvm0n2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…

Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation? Taking this Horizon story as an example, the fact that we've rejoined shows that EU membership isn't necessary for it, but it still has "years out of the deal" as a negative for Brexit and I don't think any improvement to count as a positive?

> Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation?

No. The most you could claim is that we were a few weeks earlier with a vaccine than the rest of Europe, but then we'd have been developing our vaccine within an EU framework if we'd been in, so who knows what additional benefits that would have brought.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#143

Post by mcintyre1994 »

IntelMiner wrote: post #132
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the big selling point is flexibility in regulation. The trouble is that using that flexibility would be bad for exporters so it's pretty tricky to use effectively.

I seem to recall the latter being expected, that the UK would drop regulations on imports, leading to low-quality American foodstuffs (corn syrup) flooding the market

I'm not convinced that's actually seen as a benefit by any government either though, because it'd be bad for UK companies that sell here and also export - which is what you want really. Those companies can't lower their standards to compete with lower quality imports without losing their export business.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#144

Post by FiniteField »

AlexandrB wrote: post #136
gadders wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed.

The claim that Brexit would redirect 350m/week to the NHS was a particularly egregious example. https://archive.ph/D2Yq4

Did that not happen? [0] shows an increase of £47bn on the department of health and social care from 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. That's £900m/week. If you compare to post-covid years then it's more like an increase of £28b or £540m/week. From the article linked in your comment, it seems to make a overly large "smoking gun" out of the fact that a referendum campaign website changed their website to reflect the fact that the referendum was now over.

[0] https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-w...

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#145

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #143
IntelMiner wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to recall the latter being expected, that the UK would drop regulations on imports, leading to low-quality American foodstuffs (corn syrup) flooding the market

I'm not convinced that's actually seen as a benefit by any government either though, because it'd be bad for UK companies that sell here and also export - which is what you want really. Those companies can't lower their standards to compete with lower quality imports without losing their export business.

The outcomes have already penalised exporters relative to importers.

Exporting to the EU is hard: lots of standards checks.

Importing from the EU is easy: whole categories of imports are left unchecked, because new rules aren't being enforced as a matter of policy, which is the only way we have food security, for example.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#146

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #90
kramerger wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) On the other hand, since brexit happened most international research teams in UK have lost key members to other countries so maybe someone finally took notice.

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…

> So the Leavers were right about that in the end.

We rejoined the exact same framework we were already a member of and this is a score counted in Leave's column?

This is wild logic.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#147

Post by gadders »

eptcyka wrote: post #134
gadders wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that about any election, ever. The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election.

I believe that foreign actors had a far greater influence than most other elections in British history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...

I was more interested in facts that conspiracy theories, especially as those claims were found to be libellous: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/may/20/observers-caro...

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#148

Post by gadders »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #139
gadders wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that about any election, ever. The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election.

I'd argue that it was less honest on the basis that the Leave side didn't have the equivalent of a general election manifesto. Cameron had his negotiated deal and Remain was continuity his government. But Leave didn't present any concrete document of what they wanted to happen next if we left, and if they had created such a document the referendum wouldn't have given them the power to put their plan into practice. Th…

I take your point - it wasn't like Labour was Remain, and Conservatives were Leave - in reality all major parties and much of the establishment was remain.

But I'm not sure that's dishonesty in that people were deliberately saying things that were not true - people were instead saying "These are the things made possible if we leave the EU and you vote for a party that wants this in a general election."

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#149

Post by gadders »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #138
gadders wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that about any election, ever. The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election.

> The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election. Sorry , no. It was profoundly* dishonest. I have a leaflet that was dropped through my door talking about Turkey joining the EU as if it was something imminent and guaranteed (it is neither). It featured a map that prominently suggested this was a gateway to all things nefarious by showing Turkey as a coloured region without a label, surrou…

"Turkey is negotiating its accession to the European Union (EU) as a member state, following its application to become a full member of the European Economic Community (EEC), the predecessor of the EU, on 14 April 1987.[1]"

It's officially classed as a candidate. That doesn't seem consistent with "Never joining" unless the EU knowingly lied to Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Eur...

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#150

Post by gadders »

inamorty wrote: post #137
gadders wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed.

The Big Red Bus is difficult to miss.

The Big Red Bus wasn't a signed contract. It was a statement of possibilities that the UK could spend their savings on. And it looks like the NHS budget went up by that amount anyway.
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